Phosphate Vs Acropora

[Reefahholic]

I would think it was just the phosphate bound in the algae that died

That and also some of the biome that would normally be consuming phosphate can get irritated by the Fluconazole and just stop functioning for a couple days or longer. That will cause a spike in PO4.

 

[Reefahholic]

I don’t test for or care what my PO4 reads

You’re a naughty man!

 

[Reefahholic]

Some of you know about this when you have kept your nitrate and/or phosphates higher to limit dinos. You made their lives harder and/or even poisoned them by doing this.

My thoughts are that increasing phosphate helps the biodiversity kick into gear and outcompete the Dino’s. Depleted phosphate, especially in a new tank where there is very little food (where Dino’s typically thrive) seems to slow down the Biome. I think supplementing PO4 gives them the fuel (the building block if you will) they need to multiply, but also enter the battle. Everything is fighting for real-estate, and Dino’s seem to have the upper hand in low or depleted nutrient environments just like turf and other weird slime algae’s thrive at low or depleted levels. The addition of phosphate seems to help the good guys. The problem is that the actual level needed is different in every system, and hard to pinpoint until experiment or learn the system. You’ll see Dino’s even in high nutrient environments, and I believe this is due to big swings, instability, destabilizing events, poor chemistry, or too much rich organics like vitamins, amino’s, etc.

 

[Reef Psychology]

Another thing about building blocks. They are necessary for all living things, but also are poisons at high levels. There is a sliding scale where they stop becoming useful, start to be a burden and then start to lead to death. This happens with coral, algae, humans and anything.

Some of you know about this when you have kept your nitrate and/or phosphates higher to limit dinos. You made their lives harder and/or even poisoned them by doing this.

Another example is that many inverts will not function as well with higher building block levels - mostly no3 compared to po4. They might still function, but not as well and eventually they can die. Urchins and snails at .01 po4 and .1 no3 mow down tons of algae, but they do not move as well or eat as much as these levels rise. Again, they can still do some work, so people who have never seen them function at peak form probably will never notice.

Every type of coral that I have ever kept has had different levels of sensitivity to elevated building blocks. One of my favorite Z&P is Gonzo's Space monsters, but these melt with higher no3 levels. Acropora are no different.

Coralline grows annoyingly fast with lower level building blocks. It is really annoying.

So, the logical conclusion would lead toward something like this…. Three tanks could have three vastly different NO3/PO4 readings and still have similar critical organic or bioavailability sources not detectable by current hobbyist testing methods. Those sources could range from types phosphorus compounds to nitrogen or even trace ammonium. PO4/NO3 are simply the end result (and not even a consistent one) or hundreds of other processes. Not to mention the added variables of extra-biological and mineral elements derived from various living organisms in our tanks like bacterial plankton, sponges, fish, coral , etc…

New tanks with very little biodiversity will likely lack critical nutrients and chemicals necessary for SPS and if they do contain them they will likely be in short supply. So, PO4/NO3 will not tell much of a story with these tanks - the likelyhood of problems will be high until the full range of biological and chemical variety and stability is achieved. And to achieve it, simply waiting probably won’t work because diversity isn’t being created. You’ll need to import it via frag plugs, live rock from the sea or well established tanks, added pods, etc…

And when you do achieve the necessary stability your tank will probably be busting at the seams with growth. Then, you’ll look at your NO3/PO4 and probably realize neither really meant as much as you thought in the first place. They are simply two of a hundred variables that make up a vastly complex system that we are still trying to figure out.

Still believe that inmost cases if you have a nice tank it’s because you have a good eye for spotting trouble and are very consistent with your routines. Not because of what a number is telling you.

 

[rusgum]

My thoughts are that increasing phosphate helps the biodiversity kick into gear and outcompete the Dino’s. Depleted phosphate, especially in a new tank where there is very little food (where Dino’s typically thrive) seems to slow down the Biome. I think supplementing PO4 gives them the fuel (the building block if you will) they need to multiply, but also enter the battle. Everything is fighting for real-estate, and Dino’s seem to have the upper hand in low or depleted nutrient environments just like turf and other weird slime algae’s thrive at low or depleted levels. The addition of phosphate seems to help the good guys. The problem is that the actual level needed is different in every system, and hard to pinpoint until experiment or learn the system. You’ll see Dino’s even in high nutrient environments, and I believe this is due to big swings, instability, destabilizing events, poor chemistry, or too much rich organics like vitamins, amino’s, etc.

Quite right. It is difficult for us to determine all forms of phosphate at a point in time. If there is not enough phosphate buffer in the system, then at small values there may be dips at which the sting of dinoflagellates and cyano will show

 

[rusgum]

So, the logical conclusion would lead toward something like this…. Three tanks could have three vastly different NO3/PO4 readings and still have similar critical organic or bioavailability sources not detectable by current hobbyist testing methods. Those sources could range from types phosphorus compounds to nitrogen or even trace ammonium. PO4/NO3 are simply the end result (and not even a consistent one) or hundreds of other processes. Not to mention the added variables of extra-biological and mineral elements derived from various living organisms in our tanks like bacterial plankton, sponges, fish, coral , etc…

New tanks with very little biodiversity will likely lack critical nutrients and chemicals necessary for SPS and if they do contain them they will likely be in short supply. So, PO4/NO3 will not tell much of a story with these tanks - the likelyhood of problems will be high until the full range of biological and chemical variety and stability is achieved. And to achieve it, simply waiting probably won’t work because diversity isn’t being created. You’ll need to import it via frag plugs, live rock from the sea or well established tanks, added pods, etc…

And when you do achieve the necessary stability your tank will probably be busting at the seams with growth. Then, you’ll look at your NO3/PO4 and probably realize neither really meant as much as you thought in the first place. They are simply two of a hundred variables that make up a vastly complex system that we are still trying to figure out.

Still believe that inmost cases if you have a nice tank it’s because you have a good eye for spotting trouble and are very consistent with your routines. Not because of what a number is telling you.

You are 100 percent right that only an experienced human eye on the system will determine what it lacks and what problems are looming

 

[Dburr1014]

I totally understand phosphorus and nitrogen come in many forms and what we measure is what is left over and not really a correct form coral can use(they can but it is not preferred). But running a system at the bare minimum is not for most people.
One bad event can crash the whole system. It's always(mostly) better to have that buffer.
Lately, past couple months, my NO3 has been testing at 0 even though I have been feeding more. PO4 is usually between 0.05 to 0.012. Everything still growing.
Reefs PO4 are about 0.01 but this is pretty much an unlimited resource. Our systems don't have that unlimited resource. It can be depleted without an input.

 

[rusgum]

I totally understand phosphorus and nitrogen come in many forms and what we measure is what is left over and not really a correct form coral can use(they can but it is not preferred). But running a system at the bare minimum is not for most people.
One bad event can crash the whole system. It's always(mostly) better to have that buffer.
Lately, past couple months, my NO3 has been testing at 0 even though I have been feeding more. PO4 is usually between 0.05 to 0.012. Everything still growing.
Reefs PO4 are about 0.01 but this is pretty much an unlimited resource. Our systems don't have that unlimited resource. It can be depleted without an input.

Many other points in this paragraph. The most important point is what substrate you are using. It makes no sense to add biodiversity at the beginning of the journey to material alien to the sea, and of course in such cases constant tests and adjustments are inevitable. Quite the other side of the coin is living stone and natural sand. This option minimizes tests, adjustments, and the risk of nulling nitrogen and phosphorus, so you can easily keep nitrate with phosphate at minimum values.

 

[billyocean]

So, the logical conclusion would lead toward something like this…. Three tanks could have three vastly different NO3/PO4 readings and still have similar critical organic or bioavailability sources not detectable by current hobbyist testing methods. Those sources could range from types phosphorus compounds to nitrogen or even trace ammonium. PO4/NO3 are simply the end result (and not even a consistent one) or hundreds of other processes. Not to mention the added variables of extra-biological and mineral elements derived from various living organisms in our tanks like bacterial plankton, sponges, fish, coral , etc…

New tanks with very little biodiversity will likely lack critical nutrients and chemicals necessary for SPS and if they do contain them they will likely be in short supply. So, PO4/NO3 will not tell much of a story with these tanks - the likelyhood of problems will be high until the full range of biological and chemical variety and stability is achieved. And to achieve it, simply waiting probably won’t work because diversity isn’t being created. You’ll need to import it via frag plugs, live rock from the sea or well established tanks, added pods, etc…

And when you do achieve the necessary stability your tank will probably be busting at the seams with growth. Then, you’ll look at your NO3/PO4 and probably realize neither really meant as much as you thought in the first place. They are simply two of a hundred variables that make up a vastly complex system that we are still trying to figure out.

Still believe that inmost cases if you have a nice tank it’s because you have a good eye for spotting trouble and are very consistent with your routines. Not because of what a number is telling you.

I disagree with the "because of what a number is telling you" part....with one thing. Certain numbers can certainly be gauged for problems if they become inconsistent all of a sudden. Definately agree with spotting trouble and consistent routine but consistent testing can spot problems before we can at times. In the end I'm splitting hairs and it can still go hand in hand.

 

[jda]

My thoughts are that increasing phosphate helps the biodiversity kick into gear and outcompete the Dino’s. Depleted phosphate, especially in a new tank where there is very little food (where Dino’s typically thrive) seems to slow down the Biome. I think supplementing PO4 gives them the fuel (the building block if you will) they need to multiply, but also enter the battle. Everything is fighting for real-estate, and Dino’s seem to have the upper hand in low or depleted nutrient environments just like turf and other weird slime algae’s thrive at low or depleted levels. The addition of phosphate seems to help the good guys. The problem is that the actual level needed is different in every system, and hard to pinpoint until experiment or learn the system. You’ll see Dino’s even in high nutrient environments, and I believe this is due to big swings, instability, destabilizing events, poor chemistry, or too much rich organics like vitamins, amino’s, etc.

I know that there is a huge thread on here that discusses this exact thing, but it is very likely wrong. The why is not a huge consequence since raising no3 and po4 do indeed help in the fight.

The rising nitrate and phosphate levels interrupt the cellular function of the dinos and weaken or kill them in their land grab. It levels the playing field, but in a different way than many think. The dinos had enough phosphorous to multiply, so there was no shortage for other things. The contributing factors are lots of sterile vacant places to grow and that the dinos are much faster to populate and reproduce.

You have to remember that dinos are micro algae - there are many types. The ones that thrive on our substrate are not the same ones that live inside or corals (zoox). The zoox are protected by the host and also there are many different kinds. The corals that suffer with higher waste level po4 probably have hosts that cannot protect them or a kind of dinos that are more sensitive.

Question: if the dinos could get building blocks, then why can't the coralline, bio films, etc? If more surplus can help other things, why doesn't more surplus help the dinos too?

Answer: Surplus is surplus. The dinos are just faster... and there were sterile rocks for them to take hold.

 

[jda]

So, the logical conclusion would lead toward something like this…. Three tanks could have three vastly different NO3/PO4 readings and still have similar critical organic or bioavailability sources not detectable by current hobbyist testing methods. Those sources could range from types phosphorus compounds to nitrogen or even trace ammonium. PO4/NO3 are simply the end result (and not even a consistent one) or hundreds of other processes. Not to mention the added variables of extra-biological and mineral elements derived from various living organisms in our tanks like bacterial plankton, sponges, fish, coral , etc…

New tanks with very little biodiversity will likely lack critical nutrients and chemicals necessary for SPS and if they do contain them they will likely be in short supply. So, PO4/NO3 will not tell much of a story with these tanks - the likelyhood of problems will be high until the full range of biological and chemical variety and stability is achieved. And to achieve it, simply waiting probably won’t work because diversity isn’t being created. You’ll need to import it via frag plugs, live rock from the sea or well established tanks, added pods, etc…

And when you do achieve the necessary stability your tank will probably be busting at the seams with growth. Then, you’ll look at your NO3/PO4 and probably realize neither really meant as much as you thought in the first place. They are simply two of a hundred variables that make up a vastly complex system that we are still trying to figure out.

Still believe that inmost cases if you have a nice tank it’s because you have a good eye for spotting trouble and are very consistent with your routines. Not because of what a number is telling you.

This is a good outlook. Dr. Holmes-Farley recommends no3 and 2ish and po4 at .3 ish, IIRC. I do not want to put words in his mouth, but it has always seems that he recommends these small surplus levels so that you know, as the final step in the process, that you are not limited on nitrogen or phosphorous. If you have this small surplus, then you should be good with the tools that we have. This small surplus also is not likely to jack with the cellular processes of nearly anything in the tank.

Available forms > residual forms in the end. Heavy import and heavy export with low residual levels.

 

[jda]

I totally understand phosphorus and nitrogen come in many forms and what we measure is what is left over and not really a correct form coral can use(they can but it is not preferred). But running a system at the bare minimum is not for most people.
One bad event can crash the whole system. It's always(mostly) better to have that buffer.
Lately, past couple months, my NO3 has been testing at 0 even though I have been feeding more. PO4 is usually between 0.05 to 0.012. Everything still growing.
Reefs PO4 are about 0.01 but this is pretty much an unlimited resource. Our systems don't have that unlimited resource. It can be depleted without an input.

In the case of phosphorous, the rock and sand likely have a larger reservoir bound. They will release if your water levels of po4 drop from where they are now. The buffer is not as small as some think and most forget about aragonite binding po4. The rock and sand hold a massive amount of po4.

With no3, the corals are not likely using it anyway. It is only likely low because of the denitrifying bacteria and they grow in equilibrium with your tank - growing when you add more fish/food and shrinking when you remove. They always leave a trace of no3, which in my tank you need ICP to detect at around .1, or so. These bacteria are finishing the N cycle which is wonderful for me since nothing in my tank likely needs it.

For your tank with po4 at .05 to .012 range (did you mean .12?), there is no reason to sweat these numbers. Mine are lower, but only because the tank just does it. If I was in this range of .05, I would not mess with it. I have between 1-3 ppb on the Hannah Ultra low. All of these readings are in the margin of error of the Hannah Checker, but I do find that it is incredible accurate and consistent. Even if your tank was at .01 all of the time, the sand would act as a buffer and it has plenty to add in if you dip lower.

This does not matter here, but po4 on the reefs is incredibly scare. Nearly all of the phosphorous is bound up in living things. There is very little po4 to be had. If something dies, it's building blocks are quickly gathered up by everything from bacteria to protozoans to fish. Phosphorous is the most limiting resource on the reef. With any residual po4 test over 1-2 ppb, or so, your reefs do have more available phosphorous than the ocean does.

 

[jda]

The last thing on dinos/cyano/whatever and lower po4 numbers. Look at my build thread. I keep po4 in the 1-3 ppb range. There are no dinos on sight. Why? There is no sterile rock for them to take hold - that other diversity is doing quite well with the low po4 at this level. I do get a patch of cyano every now and then the size of a coaster or silver dollar - it goes as fast as it came in a few days or a week.

The honest truth is that dinos were just a quick phase in tanks until dry/dead rock became a thing. These old tanks used sand beds of 2-6 inches and had real live rock. That large amount of fresh sand always keep po4 numbers VERY low at the jump as they were binding all the po4 that they could get as it build up a reservoir. The rock not only could turn some no3 into N gas, but also had no places for the dinos to take hold. The dinos came about 3-4 weeks in and were gone just as fast.

I guess that it is possible that some new types of dinos are now in our tanks, but I doubt it.

 

[Pod_01]

I try to keep phosphate around 0.1. If my phosphate rises above 0.2, then the acropores darken, especially those that are yellow. Nitrate does not bother me at all, even if the test shows zero

So question if your PO4 goes below 0.1 how do you increase it? Assuming it dips below 0.1.
Mine for better part of a year was in the 0.1-0.25 range. But over the past 2-3 months it has been decreasing and is now in the sub 0.05 range and I am starting to panic here. Past experience with my tank tells me low PO4 levels lead to dead corals. My tank was done with dead sand and rock, you cannot buy live sand or rock where I am. What I find interesting is that I feed lot more (pellets high on protein and fats) and fish look healthy.

 

[rusgum]

So question if your PO4 goes below 0.1 how do you increase it? Assuming it dips below 0.1.
Mine for better part of a year was in the 0.1-0.25 range. But over the past 2-3 months it has been decreasing and is now in the sub 0.05 range and I am starting to panic here. Past experience with my tank tells me low PO4 levels lead to dead corals. My tank was done with dead sand and rock, you cannot buy live sand or rock where I am. What I find interesting is that I feed lot more (pellets high on protein and fats) and fish look healthy.

My reef including one sump box is all live rock so I won't worry about zeroing phosphate for very long. But I will definitely look at the dynamics of changes in phosphate values and when these values \u200b\u200bare consistently decreasing, then I fill the automatic feeder with food rich in phosphate. I initially build the system in import/export balance, with only one skimmer

 

[jda]

So question if your PO4 goes below 0.1 how do you increase it? Assuming it dips below 0.1.
Mine for better part of a year was in the 0.1-0.25 range. But over the past 2-3 months it has been decreasing and is now in the sub 0.05 range and I am starting to panic here. Past experience with my tank tells me low PO4 levels lead to dead corals. My tank was done with dead sand and rock, you cannot buy live sand or rock where I am. What I find interesting is that I feed lot more (pellets high on protein and fats) and fish look healthy.

Have you noticed anything bad as your current po4 levels has gone down to .05? Probably not, right?

It matters how residual po4 got low. If it got lower by cutting down on the front end, then that could be bad. If it got lower by removing just the back end waste product po4, then this is likely fine. My chaeto fuge keeps the po4 very low, but never to zero.

You can increase po4 a number of ways. There are no shortage of food-grade orthophosphate powders that you can mix up to just add in po4. You can add more foods to your tank from fish to coral food and some of them really will raise po4 a lot. You can add more fish to feed.

As long as the corals look good, I would trust your eyes more than a test kit.

 

[Pod_01]

consistently decreasing, then I fill the automatic feeder with food rich in phosphate. I initially build the system in import/export balance, with only one skimmer

Thank you, I do have number of options available in that regards. I wish I had access to live rock, but I have to work with what I have available. Your reef is very inspiring.

As long as the corals look good, I would trust your eyes more than a test kit.

That is the kicker, they do look good to me. Not like what some people have. Also I am feeding lot more and that is what got me confused, PO4 nosedived.

But at the same time I am sitting on pins and needles. This reef of mine has gone from nice to train wreck in extreme hurry on more than one occasion.
I did notice the Alk and Calcium consumption increased so corals are growing.

 

[Miami Reef]

Dr. Holmes-Farley recommends no3 and 2ish and po4 at .3 ish, IIRC.

He recommended nitrates: 2-10ppm and phosphates 0.02-0.10ppm

Optimal Parameters for a Coral Reef Aquarium: By Randy Holmes-Farley

[note: edited on 5/29/2022 to update the nitrate and phosphate sections with higher recommended levels.] One of the main roles of an aquarist with a coral reef aquarium is to ensure that the conditions are right for their tank inhabitants. There are many different attributes of the aquarium...

www.reef2reef.com

For these reasons, I recommend that phosphate should be kept at 0.02 to 0.1 ppm.

A good target, in my opinion, is 2-10 ppm nitrate ion.

 

[Reefahholic]

New tanks with very little biodiversity will likely lack critical nutrients and chemicals necessary for SPS and if they do contain them they will likely be in short supply.

Correct

the likelyhood of problems will be high until the full range of biological and chemical variety and stability is achieved. And to achieve it, simply waiting probably won’t work because diversity isn’t being created. You’ll need to import it via frag plugs, live rock from the sea or well established tanks, added pods, etc…

Exactly. You have to add it. If you start a 100% dry rock tank, you need to add biodiversity or you will be waiting a very long time to have an established system. Especially if you’re cutting frag plugs off.

If more surplus can help other things, why doesn't more surplus help the dinos too?

I think you’re partially correct. I’m just unsure if the added PO4 has a detrimental effect on the Dino’s in same way. I do believe it strengthens the Biome, but maybe it’s both. I’d love to know what the additional PO4 is really accomplishing at a deeper level. It’s extremely interesting.

All of these readings are in the margin of error of the Hannah Checker, but I do find that it is incredible accurate and consistent.

Absolutely. Here’s my results from recent ICP-MS just to show how accurate a Hanna Phosphorus ULR can be.

po4 on the reefs is incredibly scare. Nearly all of the phosphorous is bound up in living things.

Phosphorous is the most limiting resource on the reef. With any residual po4 test over 1-2 ppb, or so, your reefs do have more available phosphorous than the ocean does.

I definitely see the reefs have very limited phosphate, but like you said it’s bound up, and super available to corals via bacteria, planktons, etc… that is available 24/7. So it makes sense that the reefs are thriving on residual PO4 levels. In the words to Claude Schuhmacher, our tanks are like the ghetto. This is why IMO that we need to run higher nutrients until we reach a level of maturity and stability that your tank has.

I keep po4 in the 1-3 ppb range. There are no dinos on sight. Why? There is no sterile rock for them to take hold - that other diversity is doing quite well with the low po4 at this level.

Exactly and your system is very aged.

 

[rusgum]

Correct


Exactly. You have to add it. If you start a 100% dry rock tank, you need to add biodiversity or you will be waiting a very long time to have an established system. Especially if you’re cutting frag plugs off.


I think you’re partially correct. I’m just unsure if the added PO4 has a detrimental effect on the Dino’s in same way. I do believe it strengthens the Biome, but maybe it’s both. I’d love to know what the additional PO4 is really accomplishing at a deeper level. It’s extremely interesting.


Absolutely. Here’s my results from recent ICP-MS just to show how accurate a Hanna Phosphorus ULR can be.

I definitely see the reefs have very limited phosphate, but like you said it’s bound up, and super available to corals via bacteria, planktons, etc… that is available 24/7. So it makes sense that the reefs are thriving on residual PO4 levels. In the words to Claude Schuhmacher, our tanks are like the ghetto. This is why IMO that we need to run higher nutrients until we reach a level of maturity and stability that your tank has.


Exactly and your system is very aged.

You're right about a lot of things, but I can make minor adjustments regarding biodiversity and dead substrate. My opinion and I do not want to impose it on anyone. In order for biodiversity to remain and part of it to develop in the system, a familiar home is needed for it. Dead rock is not that home initially, and adding live rock to artificial substrates will not increase biodiversity. All this variety will remain living on living stone until the dead rock is ready (this is 6 - 12 months). We need time to first colonize the dead rock with the simplest ones. I mean, I don’t see the point when starting on an artificial or dead substrate, in the first 6 months to add and count on any kind of biodiversity