Phosphate woes

[thecitadel]

Also my nitrates bottomed out the other day. Stopped my skimmer for the day and stopped my vodka drip for a day, went up to 3 and now back at 10 and maintaining. I know I need nitrates to reduce phosphate.

 

[Pistondog]

Question for you.

Say, 300 Gallon total water volume and 2.5ppm phosphate. How much would you mix and dilute and how much would you drip?

Every tank and situation is different, so you must calibrate your situation.
I used 25 ml of phosphate-E to reduce 125 total gallons from 0.9 to 0.45 ppm phosphate.
For your tank i'd dilute 50 ml into 2 liters, dripped over 6 hours or more into the overflow. Caught by 5 micron filter sox, running your skimmer too.
Do not eliminate any of these or risk to livestock.
Do not reduce po4 ppm by more than 0.5 ppm per day. Do not use lantanum chloride below 0.2 ppm.
You will have to do this multiple times due to your po4 level.

 

[jda]

You only need nitrogen to if you want to try and reduce phosphates with organic matter - trying to grow bacteria or algae. This is not a great way to reduce phosphates since they don't need much. You don't need nitrates at all, actually, and the bacteria and algae can also use nitrite or ammonium for nitrogen and almost certainly prefer it.

To remove po4 with chemicals or media you do not need nitrogen at all in any form.

 

[thecitadel]

You only need nitrogen to if you want to try and reduce phosphates with organic matter - trying to grow bacteria or algae. This is not a great way to reduce phosphates since they don't need much. You don't need nitrates at all, actually, and the bacteria and algae can also use nitrite or ammonium for nitrogen and almost certainly prefer it.

To remove po4 with chemicals or media you do not need nitrogen at all in any form.

I have a giant Refugium of cheato, light ran 24/7 and growing rapidly. So I try to keep some nitrates. I don't have any nuisance algae issues. What brought all this was my acro and candy cane both lost color and candy cane completely closed up. I was at like 50ppm nitrate and 2.5 phosphate. I've now got nitrate to 10 and stable but can't budge phosphate. I've had rowaphos going about a month now, replenished weekly with no budge, large water changes daily with no budge, less feeding. Last thing I figured is try phosphate e, I just want to be safe.

 

[thecitadel]

Every tank and situation is different, so you must calibrate your situation.
I used 25 ml of phosphate-E to reduce 125 total gallons from 0.9 to 0.45 ppm phosphate.
For your tank i'd dilute 50 ml into 2 liters, dripped over 6 hours or more into the overflow. Caught by 5 micron filter sox, running your skimmer too.
Do not eliminate any of these or risk to livestock.
Do not reduce po4 ppm by more than 0.5 ppm per day. Do not use lantanum chloride below 0.2 ppm.
You will have to do this multiple times due to your po4 level.

Wow this stuff is fast. Dripped into my overflow directly into filter socks, then feeds into reactor/skimmer chamber, into refugium and into tank. Did cloud a bit today but I turned it up a bit. I actually did 50ml of phosphate e to 4L of RODI and dripped it over since Sunday. Finally finished the 4L today and put another 4L but a bit faster of a drip. That just ran out. Dripped over 14 hours. Yesterday my phosphate was 1.5. Today it is 1.0. Daily I'm coming down about .5 so about tomorrow I will half the dose and figure out my actual usage. Thank you for the suggestion.

Now everyone says I will have a spike again as it leeches from my rocks? Should I be worried and how should I prepare?

 

[jda]

There is nothing that you can do. It will rise as the aragonite releases. Just wait for it.

If you have a lot of corals, then going from 1.5 to .5 and then back up to 1.4, or whatever, may cause issues over time. It is the up/down that is an issue and not lowering in it's self. Better to go more slow and be more linear in the decline rather than look like an EKG.

 

[thecitadel]

There is nothing that you can do. It will rise as the aragonite releases. Just wait for it.

If you have a lot of corals, then going from 1.5 to .5 and then back up to 1.4, or whatever, may cause issues over time. It is the up/down that is an issue and not lowering in it's self. Better to go more slow and be more linear in the decline rather than look like an EKG.

Understand. I'll allow it to raise up again before it just spikes and bring it down over the course of the next few months so it pulls from the substrate and rocks.

 

[jda]

You will figure out an amount in a few days. Once you get to your desired level, then dose enough to just maintain. When the po4 is high, the surface will unbind usually overnight or in a few days.

If you want to use LC to get really low it can then take a week for a significant amount of po4 to unbind from the rocks since you do have to go deeper and away from the surface. It also gets harder to remove since it requires more binding time with the water than a trip down the overflow - just dripping into a sock is not enough contact time anymore with the lower po4 in the water. These are all problems that you can address when you get there... and we are talking about like .05, or so, anyway.

 

[thecitadel]

You will figure out an amount in a few days. Once you get to your desired level, then dose enough to just maintain. When the po4 is high, the surface will unbind usually overnight or in a few days.

If you want to use LC to get really low it can then take a week for a significant amount of po4 to unbind from the rocks since you do have to go deeper and away from the surface. It also gets harder to remove since it requires more binding time with the water than a trip down the overflow - just dripping into a sock is not enough contact time anymore with the lower po4 in the water. These are all problems that you can address when you get there... and we are talking about like .05, or so, anyway.

I'll be happier just maintaining anything under .5 lol let alone .05 but I do hope to get there but this makes sense. Thank you for explaining. I just don't want to harm anyone of anything.

 

[Pistondog]

Wow this stuff is fast. Dripped into my overflow directly into filter socks, then feeds into reactor/skimmer chamber, into refugium and into tank. Did cloud a bit today but I turned it up a bit. I actually did 50ml of phosphate e to 4L of RODI and dripped it over since Sunday. Finally finished the 4L today and put another 4L but a bit faster of a drip. That just ran out. Dripped over 14 hours. Yesterday my phosphate was 1.5. Today it is 1.0. Daily I'm coming down about .5 so about tomorrow I will half the dose and figure out my actual usage. Thank you for the suggestion.

Now everyone says I will have a spike again as it leeches from my rocks? Should I be worried and how should I prepare?

Like @jda said, give it some time to leach/stabilize, a week. Then continue to lower to your target using lc.
No worries, not a spike, but will rise some.

 

[thecitadel]

Just an update.

Tank has been steady at 10ppm Nitrate and 1 ppm phosphate. I've got 50ml of phosphate E mixed in with 1 Gallon of rodi water and drip it over 3 days bringing me from 2.5 to 1.0 and now steady for almost 2 weeks. Going to leave it like this for a bit and let whatever leech out. Everything has been looking very happy in the tank. Thanks for the suggestion, working great. I've not seen any issues with my tangs, but I'm also dripping way under suggested but still making progress.

 

[thecitadel]

I've been on vacation for 7 days, tomorrow I'll return. Entire time tank has been ran with a doser. I have a camera and while I can't see my levels, fish are still swimming around and auto feeder is still feeding them. Update tomorrow when I test!

 

[thecitadel]

All is well. Everything and everyone is healthy and happy. Nems are out, tangs were excited to get some nori sheets as the autofeeder only had pellets, levels all look the same.

Prior to leaving, I setup a jebao dsp5 that I have never used. Ran it for a week before leaving to make sure no issues. Kalk, vodka, Phosphate e all ran though it. Between 8pm-10am I drip 10ml kalk every hour into my high flow baffle in sump, ph stays stable around 8.1 but I want to try and raise it. Not chasing numbers yet. Vodka does a 40ml at 9pm daily into my skimmer chamber. Phosphate E was doing 5ml every hour into overflow, into socks. While I was away, I was nervous as I didn't have socks, but figured it has 120 gallon sump to get through before display. Now I'm home, I raised Phosphate E to 10ml and put socks back and change daily.

Nitrate- 8 ppm
Phosphate- 1 ppm still. Going to raise dosage of phosphate e from 5ml to 10ml and test to see the change.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

I wonder how your phosphate got so high. It sounds absurd with regular water changes. You really mean it was at 2.5ppm and not .25? A .5 drop in a day is a ton.

I assume you posted it correctly and it is that high. I just wanted to express my surprise.

On the rocks leaching it back out, I would think if its not leaching at the rate its been absorbed that it will be a slow climb and not sudden.

But frankly I don't really know, mostly just curious to see how this continues going for you.

 

[thecitadel]

I wonder how your phosphate got so high. It sounds absurd with regular water changes. You really mean it was at 2.5ppm and not .25? A .5 drop in a day is a ton.

I assume you posted it correctly and it is that high. I just wanted to express my surprise.

On the rocks leaching it back out, I would think if its not leaching at the rate its been absorbed that it will be a slow climb and not sudden.

But frankly I don't really know, mostly just curious to see how this continues going for you.

I wondered the same, as I must have had a bad test at first, it always told me 0.5. Then I went to my lfs and got 2.5ppm. My mouth dropped. Bought a new test and tested at home and confirmed both 2.5ppm and my other test was no good anymore. Got another lfs test and also 2.5.

I'm still at 1.0 now but going to start bringing it down more with more dosage of phosphate e, assuming everyone reacts well to it. Skimmer has definitely been working over time.

 

[Court_Appointed_Hypeman]

I wondered the same, as I must have had a bad test at first, it always told me 0.5. Then I went to my lfs and got 2.5ppm. My mouth dropped. Bought a new test and tested at home and confirmed both 2.5ppm and my other test was no good anymore. Got another lfs test and also 2.5.

I'm still at 1.0 now but going to start bringing it down more with more dosage of phosphate e, assuming everyone reacts well to it. Skimmer has definitely been working over time.

Yeah, I carbon dose with elimi NP and my skimmer bubbles are tough and many.

Really curious to see if you get a fillowup spike that seems to be specifically from leaching.

My thinking is that its leaching back as concentration drops so it should be slow and steady enough for you to keep it at a steady decline with consistent dosing.

 

[thecitadel]

Yeah, I carbon dose with elimi NP and my skimmer bubbles are tough and many.

Really curious to see if you get a fillowup spike that seems to be specifically from leaching.

My thinking is that its leaching back as concentration drops so it should be slow and steady enough for you to keep it at a steady decline with consistent dosing.

Just to update you, I had a crazy spike about a week ago. Jumped way back up to 2.5. I'm finally back down to 1.0 and I've not changed anything. It just went up and now I'm coming back down. I'm wondering if I'm going to start getting under 1.0

 

[thecitadel]

Update - So about 2 days after my last update, I started to dose into the skimmer neck directly and at a higher ratio of phosphate E. I also got all new hanna checkers and salifert test to back up. Learned I was extremely low in PH despite kalk dosing in my ato and a doser at 50ml an hour and 80 at night. I was also extremely low in alk, calcium and magnesium. My ph was 7.5, nitrates were at 30, phosphate were at .25, calc was 280, Mag was 900, dkh was 6.... I did a few large water changes about 4 weeks ago over the course of 3 days and started to dose B-ionic and removed phosphate E dosing, lowered my vodka dosing and upped my kalk mix to the max amount per gallon. Over the last few days, readings have been consistent.
Ph - 8.2 during the day, 8.1 at night (literally woke up and tested it at 3am).
Nitrate - 2. Lowered my vodka dose to 30ml at 4pm and even turn my fuge light off during the day instead of 24/7.
Phosphate - I hit .05 but I'm back up around .1 and I've not dosed any phosphate E in a few weeks.
Cal - 440 I was dosing 10ml of B Ionic Part 2 but I hit like 600 calc so backed off and will do maybe 1ml and see.
Mag - 1400 I don't know if B Ionic is the cause for the raise but has been at about 1400.
Dkh - 9. I also hit up to 11 but I read thats really high so have been coming back down to the 8 range. Also was 10ml of part 1.

Fish have shown no signs of issues. Corals that I left in the tank are growing and my nems are finally opening back up. I'm also having an insane amount of coraline growing all over my back wall finally after over 2 years.

I ended up moving most my Corals to a 10 gallon nudi farm for the time being to get them cleaned up. But they were (still are) doing great in the tank.

All in all, I'm happy with the outcome. I've had no issues other than trying to figure out dosing amounts and that's on me.