Phosphates-0 Nitrates 4ppm?

[OpenOcean33]

I have been battling an algae outbreak to what I believe to be cyanobacteria, which is photosynthetic for 3 months now. I have a red sea max e 260 (69g) which I do weekly water changes (10g). I have performed a 3 day black out which kills the algae but does not eradicate it. It shows back up with in two days. I have tried dosing vibrant reef cleaner now for 8 weeks with no success. I have been testing my tank and had been receiving 0 phosphates and 0 nitrates with ATI water kits. Now I bought redsea algae control kits and am testing 0 phosphates and 4ppm nitrates (if i read this correctly). My LFS told be to dose NO3-PO-X by red sea but this didn't sound right to me. My tank runs chemo pure blue for filtration, feed mysis shrimp 1/2 cube for two clowns, one flame angel,one firefish, one anthias, one anemone(gets chunk of shrimp every third day), 4 turbo snails, 3 nasarius snails, one cleaner shrimp, 1 peppermint shrimp, 1 sand sifting star. Does any of this affect my algae growth ? Should i remove the chemipure blue and dose NOPOX? I am so lost with trying to fight this algae or cyanobacteria? The last move will be chemo clean, but I want to fix the underlying condition.

Salinity 1.025
phosphates - 0
Nitrates - 4ppm? ATI kit-0
Alk- 10.6 dkh
mag- 1520
Calcium- 440

 

[sfin52]

Any pics? How d is your tank?

 

[OpenOcean33]

I did a water change today so I do not have one from this AM. However the first picture is what it usually took like when its starting to grow again. The last two pictures are after water change showing a light dusting that just can't be removed apparently. My tank is about 6 months old now.

Any pics? How d is your tank?[/QUOTE

 

[sfin52]

Can you grab a pic with white light. Does it have bubles in it.

 

[OpenOcean33]

Can you grab a pic with white light. Does it have bubles in it.

No bubbles, except and occasional two or three. But it does get long and stringy in some areas, other areas it kind of just looks like a layer over the sand like a slimy coating. I can get white light pictures probably tomorrow when it regrows again. Also at one point i felt there were dinos two but the bubbling algae has gone away now for about 4 weeks whats left is this stuff.

 

[RocketBunny]

No bubbles, except and occasional two or three. But it does get long and stringy in some areas, other areas it kind of just looks like a layer over the sand like a slimy coating. I can get white light pictures probably tomorrow when it regrows again. Also at one point i felt there were dinos two but the bubbling algae has gone away now for about 4 weeks whats left is this stuff.

It is probably a dino-problem you have there...

Give it time and don't stress your tank with all the extra additives.

Another thing. Don't feed your tank for a day or two, and your nutrient levels will start decresing... that will make the algae decay and eventually go away.

Do you have a skimmer?

 

[OpenOcean33]

It is probably a dino-problem you have there...

Give it time and don't stress your tank with all the extra additives.

Another thing. Don't feed your tank for a day or two, and your nutrient levels will start decresing... that will make the algae decay and eventually go away.

Do you have a skimmer?

I could try give that a try, and yes I do have a skimmer that came with the tank.

 

[lapin]

This is my 2 cents.
The problem you might be having is new tank syndrome. You had stuff growing, cyano, and then you add stuff to kill it off. I killed off anything that might have started to compete with it for light and nutrients. You have chem pure blue also. Did you have a problem that you were trying to solve?
New tanks need to grow stuff to be healthy. Diatoms, cyano and hair algae are part of the process. Until you have something growing to compete with the cyano its going to keep growing. Best thing for cyano is to siphon it out with water changes and as your tank ages it will go away. Adding chemicals to fix a problem usually create other issues that are not expected.

 

[RocketBunny]

I could try give that a try, and yes I do have a skimmer that came with the tank.

I would agree to @lapin ... Most likely your tank is new and hasn't stabilized yet... and those chemicals you constantly put in ruin the process... Forget about them for the next 2 months...

I would also suggest you get a LOT of macro algae (chetomorpha, caulerpa, and a ton of other greens) and put them into the refugium. They will suck out all the extra nutrients that the skimmer misses. Just make sure that they have adequate lighting to grow

 

[OpenOcean33]

This is my 2 cents.
The problem you might be having is new tank syndrome. You had stuff growing, cyano, and then you add stuff to kill it off. I killed off anything that might have started to compete with it for light and nutrients. You have chem pure blue also. Did you have a problem that you were trying to solve?
New tanks need to grow stuff to be healthy. Diatoms, cyano and hair algae are part of the process. Until you have something growing to compete with the cyano its going to keep growing. Best thing for cyano is to siphon it out with water changes and as your tank ages it will go away. Adding chemicals to fix a problem usually create other issues that are not expected.

So the only things I have put in is the vibrant i can stop dosing that, the second thing is the chemo pure blue filtration media I have been using since the beginning should I remove that and just run carbon or maybe just skimmer? The last thing I want to do is add chemicals that is why I am trying to identify the underlying issue thanks ! Also I have a AIO tank so I'm not sure I could do any refugium unless I put it in the back with a light ?Also thats what i do is manually remove it during water changes with a net and blast the rocks with a turkey baster to try and remove old crap decaying on it.

 

[sfin52]

Just in case it's something nastier run activated carbon. I would stop dosing anything to control phospahte. Phospahte should Reed 1 or less but not zero. Nitrate is good. Anything 10 or less but not zero is good .

 

[sfin52]

Ok. here's a version of a Dino testing protocol for those without microscope. I think it may be more helpful than flying blind. There's two version: first is just good for telling if you have mostly cyano or not (more helpful than it sounds). 2nd is a modified paper towel test to filter out cyano and distinguish between diatoms and dinos by the regrouping tendency of dinos.
anyway...
Test 1: Peroxide Test - dinos/diatoms don't bubble.
Do you see brown/rust/red colored strings or mats that lessen overnight and strengthen during the day? bubbles during lights on? Odds are 99% it's cyano or dinos. Here's how you can tell if it's mostly cyano...
Suck up some material. I didn't have much to work with, left is cyano, right is a few dinos in debris.

left pic: samples, center pic: cyano, right pic: detritus with Large Cell Amphidinium Dinoflagellates hiding in it. Note how those strands could be interpreted as cyano or dino mucus. Let's find out which...
Add water until you have 100mL of sample, then add 5mL of common 3% hydrogen peroxide.
The cyano starts showing bubbles at 3mL or so, but by 5mL of H2O2 it should become really clear...

All cyano strands developed lots of bubbles. Even the tiny ones. Some start floating up.

No bubble production at the site of dinos. Right pic, the brown patches are dino clumps. Only one very tiny bubble in the center of the pic.

Should be really clear where you have significant cyano present and where you don't.

2nd Test in another post....

2nd Test: Coffee Filter Test

Find a brown patch or strings, take samples ( I pulled a mix of dinos/cyano), add tank water until you have 100mL, put in a container you can shake thoroughly

Filters: filter size can be seen by holding it up to a diffuse light and see what is visible. Far left: paper towel - too small to allow many dinos through. center left: coffee filter - just right. Center right: filter floss - too large and allows cyano through. Far right: filter pad - way too large.

All same magnification - Left: coffee filter, Center: paper towel, Right: Large Cell Amphidinium Dinos (brown cells) and debris. Paper towel is likely to block too much and let through almost no dino cells.

after pouring through the coffee filter, the water looks very clear...

but after 15 minutes even the small # of dino cells in this sample form visible brown clumps.

and microscope confirms that these brown clumps are in fact where dinos have gathered together and pulled their mucus and debris with them.
Diatoms will also pass through the coffee filter like dinos, but will not re-gather in brown clumps/strings like this.

You will still need a microscope at some point to be certain what kind of Dino you have, and plus the microscopic world of a reef tank is super-cool, but maybe this can help some people figure out if they have dinos or not.

 

[RocketBunny]

So the only things I have put in is the vibrant i can stop dosing that, the second thing is the chemo pure blue filtration media I have been using since the beginning should I remove that and just run carbon or maybe just skimmer? The last thing I want to do is add chemicals that is why I am trying to identify the underlying issue thanks ! Also I have a AIO tank so I'm not sure I could do any refugium unless I put it in the back with a light ?Also thats what i do is manually remove it during water changes with a net and blast the rocks with a turkey baster to try and remove old crap decaying on it.

Put the chaetomorphae algae into the return pump section(s), it will be good there... Show me the pic of your internal/built in sump from the back so I could tell you where you could put the algae.

Yes, for now, stop running chemi pure blue and rely on your skimmer for now... continue any dosing you are doing ( I mean trace elements and such) but no extra chemicals should be added... Also don't run carbon for now because it will suck out the extra nutrients, but then, that makes a cut in your cycle, and the algae will come back.

I also thought of this :: natural algae eaters are beneficial bacteria and copepods. Do you have a copepod population going on? Not only do they serve as a natural food for fish and corals, they also get rid of algae particles and a big population will solve the problem in some time. So I tell you this, get chatomorpha and copepods, that is a deadly combo for algae.

 

[sfin52]

I don't run micro algae . if the po4 is zero will the micro survive? I'm thinking the tank may be too new for micro algae .

 

[OpenOcean33]

this is very helpful and will defentily give it a try so i can atlas verify the problem

 

[OpenOcean33]

I don't run micro algae . if the po4 is zero will the micro survive? I'm thinking the tank may be too new for micro algae .

My thought was that the Alage was eating all the phos, so maybe macroalage could outcompete it ? Not sure still getting the hang of the hobby this is my first saltwater tank.

 

[RocketBunny]

I don't run micro algae . if the po4 is zero will the micro survive? I'm thinking the tank may be too new for micro algae .

That is why I am telling him to run macro algae... he has enough nutrients in his tank to keep the nasty algae growing. And if you add chaeto, it will start getting rid of the excess nutrients and the nasty algae will die off since it won't have any food. New tanks are better off with macro algae than old ones since the nutrient-production levels are different... Old tanks are full of corals that take care of the nutrients, and keep them down. New tanks don't have a good ecosystem running, which causes nasty algae.

 

[RocketBunny]

My thought was that the Alage was eating all the phos, so maybe macroalage could outcompete it ? Not sure still getting the hang of the hobby this is my first saltwater tank.

Yes. Macro algae exists in TONS in nature to keep everything balanced, and so nastiness doesn't overtake... so if you put it into an aquarium with nastiness, it will do its job and out-compete the nastiness.

 

[OpenOcean33]

Put the chaetomorphae algae into the return pump section(s), it will be good there... Show me the pic of your internal/built in sump from the back so I could tell you where you could put the algae.

Yes, for now, stop running chemi pure blue and rely on your skimmer for now... continue any dosing you are doing ( I mean trace elements and such) but no extra chemicals should be added... Also don't run carbon for now because it will suck out the extra nutrients, but then, that makes a cut in your cycle, and the algae will come back.

I also thought of this :: natural algae eaters are beneficial bacteria and copepods. Do you have a copepod population going on? Not only do they serve as a natural food for fish and corals, they also get rid of algae particles and a big population will solve the problem in some time. So I tell you this, get chatomorpha and copepods, that is a deadly combo for algae.

I had so many copepods they were crawling all over the glass, however since the alage came all the copepods have disappeared

 

[RocketBunny]

I had so many copepods they were crawling all over the glass, however since the alage came all the copepods have disappeared

Are you talking about the nuisance algae?

Yes that happens... Add in a natural enemy, macro algae sold at your LFS, and the nuisance algae will go away (with time).