Pleas help My Anularis Angelfish...

Dre@m_reefer

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hi everyone,

My Anularis angelfish had this spot all iver his body for the last 7 days. Im not sure if this is flukes? Ich? Or velvet?
he is in my QT for almost 1 months already,I’ve bern giving him metro+kanaplex+focus since day 5, and the tank had been running cupramine at 0.5 for the last 10 days,he still eating normally, although not ferciously.
could someone chime in to help me find out what happen with him? Thank you

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Looks like Lymphocystis, not fatal and not currently curable. It usually appears on fish held in poor water quality conditions. As it is living in copper dosed water at the moment i'd say thats what it is. It will disappear with time once it is in good quality water, usually 2 - 3 weeks. Copperbands usually get it while in QT but recover quickly. I wouldn't be too worried at the moment.
 
Freshwater dip, change water and add garlic extract to its food
 
Freshwater dip, change water and add garlic extract to its food
Not to shoot down one of my favorite members @vetteguy53081, sorry!!! But garlic has never been quantitively proven to help anything other than appetite. Wouldn’t some selcon have the same effect if needed without risking the slimy babies internal organs?
 
Not to shoot down one of my favorite members @vetteguy53081, sorry!!! But garlic has never been quantitively proven to help anything other than appetite. Wouldn’t some selcon have the same effect if needed without risking the slimy babies internal organs?
It boosts the immunity system, not for cure. For flukes FW dip and PraziPro would be a cure but this may be beyond flukes
 
Annularis angelfish are very prone to having Neobenedenia flukes. The first image looks like that, the others, not so much. You do need to rule that out because the timing is exactly right - 4 to 6 weeks after you purchase the fish and the symptoms show. Do you know how to do a 5 minute FW dip? If not, I can talk you through it. After the dip, you let the water settle and look at the bottom for what looks like fish scales - that's the Neo. A microscope or hand lens helps confirm that.

That said, those raised white spots do sort of look like Lymphocystis, except they are too numerous, and not concentrated on the fin edges like Lympho would be.

Isn't 0.5 ppm low for Cupramine? Are you dosing with label directions? You know not to add Prime or other water conditioners at this time, right?

Annularis are tough fish, I'm guessing this fellow is still feeding?

Jay
 
Hi all thank you for swift reply,

I need to explain that all my fish always goes through 5 min FW dip, followed with 90 min acriflavine bath before entering my QT tank.

and on day 15 when I WC the QT tank I always repeat the same process above (FW+Acriflavine)

the other fish (emperor and racon butterflyfish) in the same QT didnt exhibit the same symptom as Anularis. The tank had been running on therapeutic cupramine (yes 0.5 ppm is the coreect number for cupramine, i checked it with hanna colorimeter). and I never add ammonia reducer while QT my tank


symptom started to appear when I gave Furan-2 1st dose last week. I did gave them metro and prazi for 2 week because the emperor angelfish shows sign of stringy white poop (the moment prazipro enter the water, all fish lost appetite for pellet food, which they enjoyed it before). Now the stringy poo was gone.

So I assumed maybe the copper makes them stress and shows all this symptom (emperor angelfish has HLLE 2 weeks ago), and butterfly has lympho on his tail.

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Did you check the second FW dip for flukes though?

Too bad about that emperor - that HLLE is pretty bad. Seems to have come on pretty quickly, have used used carbon in the tank?

Jay
 
Annularis angelfish are very prone to having Neobenedenia flukes. The first image looks like that, the others, not so much. You do need to rule that out because the timing is exactly right - 4 to 6 weeks after you purchase the fish and the symptoms show. Do you know how to do a 5 minute FW dip? If not, I can talk you through it. After the dip, you let the water settle and look at the bottom for what looks like fish scales - that's the Neo. A microscope or hand lens helps confirm that.

That said, those raised white spots do sort of look like Lymphocystis, except they are too numerous, and not concentrated on the fin edges like Lympho would be.

Isn't 0.5 ppm low for Cupramine? Are you dosing with label directions? You know not to add Prime or other water conditioners at this time, right?

Annularis are tough fish, I'm guessing this fellow is still feeding?

Jay

Hi Jay,

thank you for your input, I did run the fish with 5 min RO FW twice,followed with acriflavine bath for 90 min.

will it be enough? Or should I used stronger medication to eradicate the fluke? Which im pretty sure its not. Because all other fish didnt shows the symptom.

Should I try formalin bath? Will it be to harsh on the fish? All the fish still eating well, I gave themchipped clam and they loved it. Though they stopped eating pellet the moment prazi hita the water. For the first 2 week I gave them metro and prazi treatment which should eradicated any worms and parasite, do you think?

So what I did today is to remove all copper from my tank and did 100 WC with new saltwater, and I will give them high quality food with garlic, vitamin, amino acid, hufa, beta glutan. I hope this will help their condition to improve.
 
Did you check the second FW dip for flukes though?

Too bad about that emperor - that HLLE is pretty bad. Seems to have come on pretty quickly, have used used carbon in the tank?

Jay

Yes I must admit I did used carbon twiceafter prazi doses, which may accelrated his condition.

anysuggestion on how to reverse this condition?

Thank you
 
Carbon dust is a prime cause of HLLE. Reversing it may not be possible once the lesions are deep enough. Moving the fish to a tank that has never held carbon works. Here is an excerpt from my upcoming fish disease book that discusses my study:

The activated carbon connection
A relationship between the use of activated carbon in aquariums and the development of HLLE in surgeonfish has been positively shown in two scientific studies. Other than that, no formal studies have been undertaken that identify other causes. However, a multitude of unproven causes have been presented by various people. Commonly, stray electrical currents and vitamin deficiencies are cited as causes, but one of the studies mentioned above ruled these out as common causes.

Based on those preliminary observations, the Toledo Zoo performed a study that demonstrated that, indeed, lignite carbon causes HLLE in surgeonfish. Minor HLLE lesions were noted on two study fish 20 days after the lignite carbon was added to the sump of their system. The lesions began to develop on the additional fish in that system and grew in size until after four months, all of the fish in that system showed severe lesions (eventually involving over one-third of their body surface). The control fish did not develop any lesions.

The carbon study hypothesis
The basic hypothesis of this study was that activated carbon causes HLLE in fishes. Originally, it was thought that carbon dust (known as fines) was the causative agent. This was based on observations at the Toledo Zoo where carbon was removed from an aquarium and the water was changed, yet HLLE symptoms could still be produced by adding susceptible fish to the aquarium, indicating there was some unknown residual action by the carbon.

Carbon fines were frequently discovered in the filter sumps and substrate of these tanks. Changing all of the aquarium’s water, decorations, and substrate would then render the aquarium safe for housing susceptible fishes (assuming no new carbon use).

Two public aquariums have reported acute outbreaks of HLLE in systems where carbon had been accidentally ground up and ejected into aquariums by mechanical filtration systems. It has also been reported that aquarium systems that use protein skimmers (foam fractionators) do not seem to develop HLLE as frequently, even when carbon is routinely used. Since protein skimmers remove particulate organic carbon from water (including carbon fines), it was thought that this might be the reason these systems do not cause HLLE as readily.

In addition, the hard-pelleted carbon used in this study did not cause severe HLLE, while the soft, dusty carbon did. However, no carbon fines were seen during histological examinations of the lesions of the study fish. This means either that the dust causing the effect is fleeting, the fines were too small for the histologist to see, or there is some other factor associated with carbon use that causes HLLE in susceptible fishes.

This effect has even been seen in freshwater fishes. In one case that demonstrates this syndrome very clearly, a pair of juvenile Australian lungfish were quarantined for over six weeks and then moved into an exhibit tank. They showed no signs of any problems. After a month or so, some driftwood decorations had caused yellowing of the water, so activated carbon was added to the power filter. The particles were small enough that they escaped the carbon container and were injected into the water. Within a few weeks, the lungfish developed unmistakable HLLE lesions. As the condition worsened, it was decided to remove the carbon from the filter and change all of the substrate (as it was contaminated with carbon dust). Within four weeks of removing the carbon, the HLLE lesions were seen to begin shrinking and within two months, the lesions were completely healed. Since these fish were actively growing, young fish and the lesions were noticed almost immediately, the problem was correctable. In aquariums where the fish are mature, the problem was not identified early enough, or where the carbon fines could not be 100% removed, it is unlikely that the aquarist will be able to resolve this problem.

Carbon recommendations
The recommendation based on the clear effect that the use of carbon had on the study fish is not to use activated lignite carbon in aquariums housing fish species susceptible to HLLE. Other means of water quality management should first be explored, including water changes, non-carbon chemical filtration, or protein skimming. Extruded pelleted carbon may be more suitable, especially if used sparingly. No conclusions can be drawn regarding the use of carbon filtration products that were not tested.

If you do use carbon, rinse it well in reverse osmosis water prior to use, use a protein skimmer, and do not place the carbon in a high-water-flow reactor (that might serve to break the carbon granules up into finer particles).

One special case seems to be the HLLE-like problem seen in cichlids (notably discus, angelfish and oscars). In these cases, the malady seems related to a flagellated protozoan in the gut, possibly Hexamita sp. If caught soon enough, 10 mg of metronidazole (Flagyl) per gram of food (such as in a gelatin food mix) fed for five days may clear the problem. If the fish are not feeding well, metronidazole can be added to the aquarium’s water at a dose of 5 ppm every other day for three treatments. If the syndrome is not caught early enough, the HLLE-like lesions may become permanent. In addition, metronidazole is very bitter, and some fish will not accept it when added to their food.


Jay
 
Very good read Jay, I must admit I owned one of your book “advanced marine aquarium”.

at the beginning I also thought its not a HLLE Since the hole only happen in the middle face, I thought it was hexamita. But after a week I can clearly saw the HLLE pattern allong the body of the fish.

but even aesthetically the fish wont recover full,he will still be able to lived healthy and normally right?
 
Very good read Jay, I must admit I owned one of your book “advanced marine aquarium”.

at the beginning I also thought its not a HLLE Since the hole only happen in the middle face, I thought it was hexamita. But after a week I can clearly saw the HLLE pattern allong the body of the fish.

but even aesthetically the fish wont recover full,he will still be able to lived healthy and normally right?

Yes - I've had fish with HLLE live for decades, even in severe cases.

Jay
 
Hi, little update with anularis,

So I stopped copper treatment last friday, did 100% WC with new water. (double check with Hanna metercopper at 0.03)

I stopped all the medication and antibiotic, gave the fish another 5 min FW DIP + 90 min acriflavine bath yesterday.

but the fish condition remain the same, im pretty sure its not fluke or ick. As other fishes on the same tank didnt exhibit anything like him. Was it fish Allergic? Most of the spot only appear on the tail, fin, head, and gil. With main body totally clear of the spot, and he didnt show any symptom of scratching.

I’ve been giving him food soak vitamin and hufa mixed with clam and pellet. He was eating well.

is there anything else I could do? Or this is just a temporrary condition because the fish was stressed and undermedication preciously?

thank you....
 

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