Please help. Don’t want to kill another poor fish...

[ReeferSteve]

In the natural world, every turn of a rock is a new environment and these fish are swimming and surviving all day long. They have endless hiding spots and other fish around to feel safe. They are never placed in a confined exposed plastic box... the DT tank is the closest thing to nature and his best defense...

If you move a fish from one DT to a completely new DT with different tank mates, he’s going to “feel safe” because there’s other fish? Being introduced to a group of fish will add stress, especially when those fish become overly curious about this big new fish laying around on the substrate.

 

[Zan's Aquatica]

Thank you for this. I’m shocked reading some of these replies literally blaming the OP for doing the very thing that this hobby teaches you to do. Introduce a new fish? QT it first. I don’t care if it came from across the street or the Red Sea. Especially a tang. It’s so ill advised to tell someone not to QT because the fish “came from your buddy”

That’s simply terrible advice and I’m surprised to see it here on R2R to be frank.

The hobby doesn't teach you anything, the hobby is us trying to learn it and for that we have the natural world to try and understand and hope to "replicate." There is no need to be shocked at the various understandings, there is actually a strong percentage of reefers who never quarantine, myself being one, and have had better (subjective statement) success in this practice. I could be just as shocked at your statement but we are here to learn and i doubt anyone here is a true master.

 

[Zan's Aquatica]

If you move a fish from one DT to a completely new DT with different tank mates, he’s going to “feel safe” because there’s other fish? Being introduced to a group of fish will add stress, especially when those fish become overly curious about this big new fish laying around on the substrate.

Like i said, in the natural world they never know what is around the corner yet they keep on swimming. Have you ever been diving? Isn't the main culture behind reef-keeping to replicate the natural world? QT is unnatural, DT is natural. This is my perspective and this is what has always worked for me. And unless there is a known aggressor in the tank, no, i wouldn't think twice.

5 hours of being in shock in a new DT is better than 5 days of shock in a QT... then after the horrible QT, he has to go into the DT and deal with that stress still/anyway, so what was your point? 5 hours of stress is far less likely to create and accelerate disease than 5 days will...

 

[ReeferSteve]

Like i said, in the natural world they never know what is around the corner yet they keep on swimming. Have you ever been diving? Isn't the main culture behind reef-keeping to replicate the natural world? QT is unnatural, DT is natural. This is my perspective and this is what has always worked for me. And unless there is a known aggressor in the tank, no, i wouldn't think twice.

Yes I have. But no I have never been diving in a 55 gallon box. So you can try to make a tank look natural but the fact of the matter is that it’s not natural. I respect your opinion and I hope you continue to find success in your practices but I do believe the luck will run out and you will nuke your tank with ich or something else by not using a QT system. And I think most people that don’t use QT would tell you they understand the risk and it’s not about trying to replicate nature.

Also, you said the hobby doesn’t teach you anything. This hobby has taught me many things. And it continues to teach me things all the time.

Can I ask you one question? If the OP skipped QT and got the same outcome, only introducing ich to their DT, what would you have said?

 

[Bapeluso]

Like i said, in the natural world they never know what is around the corner yet they keep on swimming. Have you ever been diving? Isn't the main culture behind reef-keeping to replicate the natural world? QT is unnatural, DT is natural. This is my perspective and this is what has always worked for me. And unless there is a known aggressor in the tank, no, i wouldn't think twice.

5 hours of being in shock in a new DT is better than 5 days of shock in a QT... then after the horrible QT, he has to go into the DT and deal with that stress still/anyway, so what was your point? 5 hours of stress is far less likely to create and accelerate disease than 5 days will...

There is a big difference between the hobby and the natural world. The natural world is the majority of this planet whereas what we're talking about is a glass box. Just to throw this out there, who's to say that the quarantine tank is so unnatural and terrible? Many people have sand and rock that they have placed in there to replicate a more natural setting

 

[Zan's Aquatica]

Yes I have. But no I have never been diving in a 55 gallon box. So you can try to make a tank look natural but the fact of the matter is that it’s not natural. I respect your opinion and I hope you continue to find success in your practices but I do believe the luck will run out and you will nuke your tank with ich or something else by not using a QT system. And I think most people that don’t use QT would tell you they understand the risk and it’s not about trying to replicate nature.

Also, you said the hobby doesn’t teach you anything. This hobby has taught me many things. And it continues to teach me things all the time.

Can I ask you one question? If the OP skipped QT and got the same outcome, only introducing ich to their DT, what would you have said?

Isn't the entire cultural practice behind reefing to study and understand the natural world and try to replicate it? Isn't stress the #1 disease trigger?

By "the hobby doesn't teach us" i meant that there is no set hobby book, we ARE the hobby and we ARE the teachers to ourselves and one another. And that was in response to someone who said "the hobby teaches us to quarantine." I challenge that because many hobbyists can teach the total opposite and it is just as much in the teaching of the hobby as any other concepts we explore.

Most fish have the parasite living on them already. In most cases quarantining and stressing them out is what causes the "outbreak" and allows the ich to multiply in their system. All of my above responses pretty much answer your question. In my experience and understanding, quarantining is One of the leading causes of disease in this hobby. Unless you have a quarantine tank that is basically a second establishing eco system (not just a box with saltwater) then you're causing the fish more problems than it would normally have.

 

[Zan's Aquatica]

There is a big difference between the hobby and the natural world. The natural world is the majority of this planet whereas what we're talking about is a glass box. Just to throw this out there, who's to say that the quarantine tank is so unnatural and terrible? Many people have sand and rock that they have placed in there to replicate a more natural setting

The whole point is we are trying to make it so there isn't That Big of a difference!
If your quarantine tank is a second establishing ecosystem, then obviously theres nothing wrong. I'm talking about just a box with water, heater, and a PVC. There i an obvious HUGE difference between that environment and a DT type environment which is much closer to their natural world. You, as a human, if you feared you are being hunted and have no idea where you are, would you feel comfortable with buildings and trees around, or would you be okay being at the top of an open hill and bare sky? As a human with ability to rationalize, you would be terrified.. now imagine a fish who basically has been abducted by an entity outside its scope of realm and ability to rationalize.

In nature when i am diving, fish are not afraid of me, they swim by me like i'm part of the water because there are tons of places to hide if they wanted, plus tons of fish swimming around giving them affirmation that it's safe. But in the tank, they are mostly terrified of us...

 

[homer1475]

Isn't the entire cultural practice behind reefing to study and understand the natural world and try to replicate it? Isn't stress the #1 disease trigger?

By "the hobby doesn't teach us" i meant that there is no set hobby book, we ARE the hobby and we ARE the teachers to ourselves and one another. And that was in response to someone who said "the hobby teaches us to quarantine." I challenge that because many hobbyists can teach the total opposite and it is just as much in the teaching of the hobby as any other concepts we explore.

Most fish have the parasite living on them already. In most cases quarantining and stressing them out is what causes the "outbreak" and allows the ich to multiply in their system. All of my above responses pretty much answer your question. In my experience and understanding, quarantining is One of the leading causes of disease in this hobby. Unless you have a quarantine tank that is basically a second establishing eco system (not just a box with saltwater) then you're causing the fish more problems than it would normally have.

No set hobby books? Really so nothing set in stone that we need to keep salinity at 1.026, temp in the mid to upper 70's, lights adaquate enough to grow corals, what the big 3 are and how to maintain them, how not to kill fish by cycling a tank, and many other thinghs that are set in stone, or book worthy.

Now on to the ich part.....Most fish do not have the parasite on them, they only get it when they become infected through the traveling process before they get to our tanks(IE exposed to the disease then later stressed out). If you QT everything, then your fish do not have ich and it is not present on every fish. Ever wonder why we don't see fish with ich in nature?

Qt is the leading cause of disease in the hobby? You really do need to go back and do some research before spouting out right lies. Ever wonder why there is a thread a week about buying pre quarentined fish?

 

[Bapeluso]

In nature when i am diving, fish are not afraid of me, they swim by me like i'm part of the water because there are tons of places to hide if they wanted, plus tons of fish swimming around giving them affirmation that it's safe. But in the tank, they are mostly terrified of us...

And we ain't in the glass box with em. Other animals within the confines space of a glass box are the main stress causing beings in these circumstances. Trust, they can get equally stressed by a new addition

 

[Zan's Aquatica]

No set hobby books? Really so nothing set in stone that we need to keep salinity at 1.026, temp in the mid to upper 70's, lights adaquate enough to grow corals, what the big 3 are and how to maintain them, how not to kill fish by cycling a tank, and many other thinghs that are set in stone, or book worthy.

Now on to the ich part.....Most fish do not have the parasite on them, they only get it when they become infected through the traveling process before they get to our tanks(IE exposed to the disease then later stressed out). If you QT everything, then your fish do not have ich and it is not present on every fish. Ever wonder why we don't see fish with ich in nature?

Qt is the leading cause of disease in the hobby? You really do need to go back and do some research before spouting out right lies. Ever wonder why there is a thread a week about buying pre quarentined fish?

You are being a bit of an extremist with your comments back. I said ONE of the leading. i also said there are different understandings and practices in the hobby that are just as much part of the hobby as the set stuff, i didn't say there are no set stuff.
You are clearly taking things out of context and making me sound extreme by actually being the extreme one.
I can't converse with the personality types who argue in this style so i respectfully will not engage with you...

 

[Zan's Aquatica]

And we ain't in the glass box with em. Other animals within the confines space of a glass box are the main stress causing beings in these circumstances. Trust, they can get equally stressed by a new addition

People put them in quarantine with no hiding spots and then helicopter over them for days. That is a recipe for bad news. If you make your quarantine look and feel safe to them, then obviously theres less stress there. Now I am just repeating myself so i am exiting the convo! Best to all and to allll a goooood niiiight lol

 

[homer1475]

Strictly speaking, in microbiology, ich most likely and almost certainly present all tanks. It is an opportunistic pathogen that is likely kept at bay by a fish's healthy immune system.

If you have an otherwise healthy and stable tank and have made no recent additions to you tank but your temp spikes for several hours (or some other change to the otherwise healthy tank conditions) and one or two of you fish get ich, where did it come from? The fish, their immunity dropped due to changes in environmental factors and gave the ich a foothold.

Same thing can happen to humans when their immune systems become compromised. In this case, the healthy fish was pushed.

This is just plain wrong on every level. If you QT everything, then ich is not present in your system no matter how stressed your fish get.

And no its not the same as humans. We are bombarded by diseases all day every day and are not in a box of water that can have its environment manipulated and treated. I would liken our tanks to a quarantine facility were everything down to the air going in can be scrubbed for disease.

If you treat for the disease before it enters the system, it never enters the system. I live thousands of miles from the ocean, if I QT my fish, then how does ich just magically appear when my fish get stressed? Oh wait, I QTed everything and I don't have ich or any other disease in my tank.

 

[fishguy242]

chime in no bias ,hippo has in bloodstream can pop spots and then none 99 percent of time does not spread to others in tank,2 only fish i will put to keep in displays ,would be from well known tank/hobbiest /trusted friend

 

[Bapeluso]

You can add this thread to the "what grinds your gears" thread

 

[homer1475]

chime in no bias ,hippo has in bloodstream can pop spots and then none 99 percent of time does not spread to others in tank,2 only fish i will put to keep in displays ,would be from well known tank/hobbiest /trusted friend

100% wrong

Ich is not in thier bloodstream, its an opurtunistic parasite that lives just under the skin during one of it's life cycles.

 

[fishguy242]

100% wrong

Ich is not in thier bloodstream, its an opurtunistic parasite that lives just under the skin during one of it's life cycles.

its in the hippo and many other tangs comes out when stressed ,not getting involved here ,happy reefing

 

[Zan's Aquatica]

Never said anything about the ONE thing, you actually said "The hobby teaches us nothing".

Yeah you won't engage because your just flat out wrong. period end of discussion. And anyone with a differing opinion doesn't matter. Typical of the new generation.

you’re taking my comment out of context, once again.

that was In Resonse to someone saying “The hobby teaches you to quarantine”

and i said “The hobby doesn't teach you anything, the hobby is us trying to learn it” in response to the “you have to quarantine per the hobby” statement.

You really need to stop pulling statements out of context and then only posting HALF of the sentence! Then you force me to go back and basically repeat a conversation. It doesn’t make sense...

 

[Bapeluso]

 

[Bapeluso]

It doesn’t make sense...

... you dont make sense... someone gimme that bad guy badge

 

[fishguy242]

read the whole thread