Please Help - Everything is Bleaching

[johnbr]

@Dana Riddle @Daniel Waters

Hey guys,

I was thinking. Is there anything that I can dose the tank to help my corals to recover faster? Any kind of supplement? I have reef roids. Should I feed everyday? Besides that what kind of nutrients could I possibly try to give my corals a boost in their health without messing my water parameters?

also I have 2 500 watts Finnex - HMX 500S Titanium. Could they be releasing any kind of metal in the water?

Thanks

 

[Dana Riddle]

It has been proven (not others, not me) that feeding corals can help them survive bleaching events. ReefRoids are good for your SPS, try small pieces of shrimp for LPS. Try small feedings daily. By extension, the corals' waste products will act as a fertilizer for zoox. I'm unsure about corrosion resistance of titanium, other than I used a chiller years ago that contained it and never saw any issues. It might be possible that titanium is like stainless steel in that different grades are more resistant to corrosion when exposed to heat, chloride, etc. I hope someone with more knowledge will jump in and advise.

 

[Deereefer]

Since this is a brand new set up. It could be a number of things. For now, just keep good water parameters and restrain from adding new corals for at least a few months.

 

[johnbr]

Should I add more fish? Also, My chaeto died completely. That must be something really wrong with my tank that I'm missing since not even macro algae can thrive in this thing.

Today i did another water test.

Nitrates came out at 10-20 ppm
PO4 - 0.08

Any tips to lower those numbers? Just did 25 gallon water change 2 days ago. I don't heavily.

Thanks

 

[Dana Riddle]

Your nutrient numbers aren't outrageous, and I find it striking that your Chaeto died. Chaeto has a very low light requirement (did it turn white or discolored?) Personally, I wouldn't add any additional fishes until things are stabilized.

 

[johnbr]

Your nutrient numbers aren't outrageous, and I find it striking that your Chaeto died. Chaeto has a very low light requirement (did it turn white or discolored?) Personally, I wouldn't add any additional fishes until things are stabilized.

Dana,

They literally went from beautiful green to a brown slime.

It's so sad.

 

[Daniel Waters]

@johnbr don't add any more fish at this time. Your nutrient numbers are fine for the time being. You mentioned you were going to order a Triton test. Maybe when you get those results back it will tell us more.

Feeding corals- I think you have plenty of nutrients that it's probably not necessary. However, proper direct feeding may be of benefit.

The chaeto dying is odd. As I had asked before, "As far as your chaeto turning brown, is your chaeto actually turning brown or is there simply red slime or diatoms growing / collecting on it? Do you have your chaeto tumbling? What kind of light do you have on it?"

The chaeto dying off may or may not be related to your coral issues. As I've said before, your corals are bleached and not losing tissue. It's not ideal, but if they were retracted / not expanding or losing tissue, I would be more concerned. If I had to bet at this point, I'm thinking your issue was a little too much light with a relatively new tank. The corals reached a stressing point for whatever reason and bleached. Recovery will just take time at this juncture. Water changes are fine but your corals will take weeks to fully recover after a bleaching event.

 

[johnbr]

The chaeto dying is odd. As I had asked before, "As far as your chaeto turning brown, is your chaeto actually turning brown or is there simply red slime or diatoms growing / collecting on it? Do you have your chaeto tumbling? What kind of light do you have on it?"

Hey @Daniel Waters

It literally turned brown and when I hold you could see and feel that was dead. No they are sitting in my refugium with 2 media bricks under one kessil h80.

Its static no tumbling

 

[Daniel Waters]

Hey @Daniel Waters

It literally turned brown and when I hold you could see and feel that was dead. No they are sitting in my refugium with 2 media bricks under one kessil h80.

Its static no tumbling

Very peculiar. Let's wait and see what your Triton test reveals

 

[johnbr]

You purchase a Triton test kit (BRS sells them). $49 for one. You will get a box with two sealable water vials and bar codes that stick on each vial. You mail the box and water samples back to the address inside the kit (may be an address label already filled out) You have to pay postage, so expect another $2 to $3. They will receive the sample and forward to the lab for the testing. Your results will be uploaded and linked to your bar code. There's a website where you register and enter your tank information. You enter your barcode information on the website. Thus, if you do multiple tests periodically, you just enter the new test bar code and the water sample results will link them up. It's not a hard process and is explained in the kit. Takes about 2 weeks or so to get results back. I think it would be worth exploring given the lengths you are going to just to rule out some things.

As far as temperature, it sounds like you're covered there.

As far as your pumps being new, you're probably right and it's probably not an issue, but it's a good idea to always visually inspect equipment periodically (when you clean them for example).

There's so many things that I've read about happening to people and their tanks. I've heard of people who accidentally dropped a screw down in their sand bed (unknowingly) and it cause issues in their tanks. I've heard of kids throwing a penny in the sump. I've heard of a cleaning lady spraying cleaning stuff near the tank and the mist getting in the water. Need I go on?

I think better pictures under whiter lights will give everyone a better idea. It's possible your corals were already a little stressed in your nano tank (by your own admission). Moving them to the new tank probably stressed them, and given the tank is fairly new, it's just probably not as stable as we all like to think it is. Like I said, I think there are a lot of biological processes going on in our tanks that we probably don't fully understand...I think a lot of these get worked out or reach equilibrium states only after several months of a tank being established. Even in my new 6' tank I started about 2 years ago, I noticed an establishment period that took many months, despite me using existing live rock and other bio media from my existing (and running) 75 gallon tank at the time. I didn't have to cycle the new tank, and my water parameters all measured good every time I measured, but I can tell you that the tank just wasn't as stable as it was many more months later. I can't tell you exactly what changed, and this is purely anectodotal, but that was my experience. I just mention this because it seems like you are doing all the right things.

To those concerned only (or even just primarily) about the business end of this, or to those p1ssed off because they won't be able to put wild coral X into their little glass box of ocean next week, I have to say that you need to open your eyes and look at the bigger picture.

Reefs are dying all over the world. I won't debate the whys, but the fact is irrefutable. In the presence of man and all the abuse we throw at the oceans, we have truly endangered an already fragile ecosystem. We have to be more responsible with how we treat the oceans and the reefs and their inhabitants. This is not about lobbying or pressuring some government halfway around the world. This is about doing the right thing for its own sake. If you can't see that and follow along and be supportive, then go find your own island somewhere and live on it.

Yes, a ban like this is going to hurt and threaten some livelihoods. That's tough. You may have to change and adapt. Fortunately, you can do that. The reefs can't, at least not quickly enough to save themselves from unnatural abuse. Simple fact is that when all of the reefs are gone, so are we, so wake up and widen your view.

I don't know the reason for the Indonesian ban. I don't think anybody outside of the Indonesian government does yet. It may or may not be rooted in environmental issues, although most of the reef closures and bans we've seen have been. Until the ban is resolved and lifted, stop complaining, live with it, and find some other options.

Once again, I don't think your corals look that bad. They aren't peeling tissue off (that would be what I call "bad"). They may be pale from expelling some zooxanthellae, which is all I'm seeing from your pictures. They will take time to recover, which could be on the order of weeks, not days. For some acros I have bought, it took them months to color up correctly, and that was with no problems!

And remember this is a hobby. It may be frustrating at times, but you don't have to let it control you. You're doing the best you can given the information you have. Don't beat yourself up. Do you have any idea how much stuff I've killed in the past and anguished over? Lots! You'll get it figured out. Give it some time.

Years ago, I made a presentation in a city (unnamed to protect the guilty) and was taken on a tour to see club members' tank. All of them were horrible and I was bombarded with questions. As it turned out, the only commonality among them that I could determine was the brand of artificial sea salt used. Perhaps just a bad batch, or was it normal for that brand? I'll never know for sure.

The brand of ASW used in the tanks I saw was not IO. We used pallets of IO at the coral farm back in the 90's and never had any issues related to its use. As far as bleaching, the Big 3 are: Excessive light, high (or low) temperature, improper water chemistry. It sounds like your PAR and temp number are reasonable. As has been suggested, perhaps a thorough analysis of water chemistry is in order (Triton, Tropic Marin, etc.) One though - is your magnetic glass cleaner left in the tank all the time?

It takes a long time for corals to recover, and, often they don't. You might add 1-2 lower cost new corals (similar types) to see how they do. Triton test sounds smart at this point. You're also really light on fish for a 120. Maybe two thermometers to double check temp?

Your nutrient numbers aren't outrageous, and I find it striking that your Chaeto died. Chaeto has a very low light requirement (did it turn white or discolored?) Personally, I wouldn't add any additional fishes until things are stabilized.

Very peculiar. Let's wait and see what your Triton test reveals

So guys just a heads up.

Yesterday I had guy coming in from world wide corals.

He's their Live Stock Manager with TONS of experience. We spent almost two hours talking, I explained my hole case, showed him my parameters.

And...

Here's what he thinks to be the problem. He said that my case is the ones most hard to figure out since my tank is pristine clean, test shows nutrients. Also, that even though my tests showed 20-25 nitrates, 0.11 PO4 and my chaeto is still dying, corals are pale I should forget the numbers. He said that I've an overkill skimmer for my tank 3 filters socks several medias for filtering and a refuge.

He said that, that's TOO MUCH filtration and the fact that my test shows 25 nitrates on the display tank does not mean that my chaeto is getting the same amount since that are several filtration steps before the nitrates and PO4 have the chance to be consumed by the macro algae, hence they're dying.

So for them my issue is that my tank is starving and not enough light even for LPS. My tank is 2 feet deep and I was running blues only 10% for both Radion Pros with diffuser. So they said that I should forgot about numbers right now and don't care about nitrates and PO4 and just feed the fish let them poop grab some CUC and remove the filter socks and turn off the skimmer for 12 hours and let it run for 12 since this way I have the chance to let everything flow and also to bump the lights to 35% overall brightness.

And I should keep feeding 3x / week reef roids.

What you guys think?

 

[PSXerholic]

My 2 cents here quick.....

Get an ICP done to get the whole picture, maybe a Halogen or metal is over the limits. Copper, Fluoride and some others cause bleaching as well.
Or simply something below the lower limits! Hard to say.
Also keep preventively temp below/not exceeding 78Fahrenheit.

 

[johnbr]

My 2 cents here quick.....

Get an ICP done to get the whole picture, maybe a Halogen or metal is over the limits. Copper, Fluoride and some others cause bleaching as well.
Or simply something below the lower limits! Hard to say.
Also keep preventively temp below/not exceeding 78Fahrenheit.

Ty for your inputs,

Temps are perfect no more then 77-78.

 

[Dana Riddle]

So guys just a heads up.
I'm confused - what filtration steps are involved before nutrients can be absorbed by algae? Plants/algae have preferences for the nitrogen source - some prefer ammonia/ammonium while others like nitrate, and uptake is direct. The test used for phosphorus/phosphate reports ortho-phosphate (or reactive phosphate) that is used by plants, algae, zooxanthellae, etc. It is true that organic phosphorus must enter the Phosphorous Cycle before being converted to a form usable by plants. It might be that there is a deficiency of some micro-nutrient (iron, cobalt, etc.)
Yesterday I had guy coming in from world wide corals.

He's their Live Stock Manager with TONS of experience. We spent almost two hours talking, I explained my hole case, showed him my parameters.

And...

Here's what he thinks to be the problem. He said that my case is the ones most hard to figure out since my tank is pristine clean, test shows nutrients. Also, that even though my tests showed 20-25 nitrates, 0.11 PO4 and my chaeto is still dying, corals are pale I should forget the numbers. He said that I've an overkill skimmer for my tank 3 filters socks several medias for filtering and a refuge.

He said that, that's TOO MUCH filtration and the fact that my test shows 25 nitrates on the display tank does not mean that my chaeto is getting the same amount since that are several filtration steps before the nitrates and PO4 have the chance to be consumed by the macro algae, hence they're dying.

So for them my issue is that my tank is starving and not enough light even for LPS. My tank is 2 feet deep and I was running blues only 10% for both Radion Pros with diffuser. So they said that I should forgot about numbers right now and don't care about nitrates and PO4 and just feed the fish let them poop grab some CUC and remove the filter socks and turn off the skimmer for 12 hours and let it run for 12 since this way I have the chance to let everything flow and also to bump the lights to 35% overall brightness.

And I should keep feeding 3x / week reef roids.

What you guys think?

 

[johnbr]

Any thoughts?

 

[Daniel Waters]

He said that, that's TOO MUCH filtration and the fact that my test shows 25 nitrates on the display tank does not mean that my chaeto is getting the same amount since that are several filtration steps before the nitrates and PO4 have the chance to be consumed by the macro algae, hence they're dying.

Personally, I think diffusion occurs pretty quickly in a well circulated aquarium. The idea that all your nutrients are getting used up so quickly in one area and not available to other parts of the system is questionable given your nutrient test levels (see below on the converse where test results show 0 nutrients). If you really want to test that assertion, turn your pumps off for an hour and test the water in your main tank and water right beside your chaeto. I suspect you'll get the exact same nitrate levels. However, if you are using mechanical filtration such as 100 micron filter socks, I do believe those will trap items larger than that and prevent them circulating throughout the system. Reef roids are supposed to be 150-200 microns. But I can't see filter socks being the source of your problems- most corals in our tanks do fine without supplemental feedings and certainly shouldn't be bleaching like you have encountered.

In cases of test kits showing 0 nutrients, this is a separate issue than what is described above. I do believe it is possible to have neglible readings on nitrate and phosphate but that does not mean a tank is void of those. In many instances, a tank will consume the nutrients fairly quickly as they are added. When a tank's parameters are stable, that hardly means things aren't changing. An aquarium is a dynamic ecosystem whereby nutrients, waste, food, and so forth are constantly being introduced and removed either by consumption or export methods. A test result may show no change in nitrates for example, but that hardly captures the true back and forth balance taking place within an aquarium.

For what it's worth, I'm not disagreeing with what the WWC person told you. Those strategies may work. As I've said before, I think your corals are likely to recover in time.

 

[PSXerholic]

Ty for your inputs,

Temps are perfect no more then 77-78.

Good luck!
Post your ICP results if you have a chance.

 

[Daniel Waters]

So for them my issue is that my tank is starving and not enough light even for LPS. My tank is 2 feet deep and I was running blues only 10% ...and also to bump the lights to 35% overall brightness.

I'm confused @johnbr . You stated in your post earlier in this thread that you were running your lights at 35% and were getting 115 par on the bottom. You now say you are running just blues at 10%? Maybe I'm not clear on what is going on, but if you went from 35% to 10% (and just blues), you decreased your light output by probably 60%...if that's the case, yes, you need more light. Your lighting schedule wasnt that bad before, and I think a few of us recommended doing a slight decrease in intensity (slight would be something like a 35% intensity to 30% intensity for example)

 

[Surfandturf]

This is a lighting issue. You can tell by the frogspawn. I had the exact issue when I tinkered with my lights in order to accommodate sps. I guarantee it's the lights.

 

[johnbr]

I'm confused @johnbr . You stated in your post earlier in this thread that you were running your lights at 35% and were getting 115 par on the bottom. You now say you are running just blues at 10%? Maybe I'm not clear on what is going on, but if you went from 35% to 10% (and just blues), you decreased your light output by probably 60%...if that's the case, yes, you need more light. Your lighting schedule wasnt that bad before, and I think a few of us recommended doing a slight decrease in intensity (slight would be something like a 35% intensity to 30% intensity for example)

This is a lighting issue. You can tell by the frogspawn. I had the exact issue when I tinkered with my lights in order to accommodate sps. I guarantee it's the lights.

It was 10% and now I increase alm the way to 35 only blue. Will wait them to get better and see what happens. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear guys.

But what intrigues me the most is my chaeto dying. I seriously dont know how or why.

 

[Surfandturf]

It was 10% and now I increase alm the way to 35 only blue. Will wait them to get better and see what happens. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear guys.

But what intrigues me the most is my chaeto dying. I seriously dont know how or why.

So I can tell you from my experience that frogspawn are pretty sensitive to all swings. If this was an alkalinity swing, yours would be closed up or receding. I'm not seeing that in your pics. Do you have two lights on that tank? Like two individual units that are paired? If so, how close together do you have them. If too close, it creates a large overlap which can increase intensity in those spots. For instance, if you think your at 30 intensity, you may actually be at 45 due to overlap.