Please help, is this black ich?

[reef-geek]

got a biota yellow tang from lfs recently, is it black ich? I did a FW dip for 5 mins, the spots are gone for now, what should. I do next? what med to use?

 

[DE FISH]

Looks like it to me as for cure the fw dip will help but not eradicate it you need to prazi dose once, wait about a week then do a 20-25% water change and then repeat the dose then do another water change

 

[reef-geek]

Thanks for the help, prazi dose in the qt? Or prazi bath?

 

[DE FISH]

Thanks for the help, prazi dose in the qt? Or prazi bath?

Prazi in qt or formalin 45 - 60 min bath followed by sterile qt I’d go prazi approach In qt less stressful for the fish

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

#fishmedic

 

[reef-geek]

Hi @DE FISH ,it's been 6 days after prazi dose and water is cloudy, I still see a couple of black dots, is it normal?

Should I do a 20% wc and dose more prazi?

Thanks in advance

 

[Unitylover]

lemme get the experts. @vetteguy53081 @Jay Hemdal

 

[vetteguy53081]

It is and are turibella worms . Best recourse is a 5 minute freshwater dip same temperature as display tank and then a 45 min bath is ruby rally pro or prazi bath followed by treatment of the same
They’re not as critical as the parasite/protozoan ich

 

[DE FISH]

Hi @DE FISH ,it's been 6 days after prazi dose and water is cloudy, I still see a couple of black dots, is it normal?

Should I do a 20% wc and dose more prazi?

Thanks in advance

Sounds like a bacteria bloom your meant to dose wait for a week and then repeat the dose.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

got a biota yellow tang from lfs recently, is it black ich? I did a FW dip for 5 mins, the spots are gone for now, what should. I do next? what med to use?

Interesting! That does appear to be "black ich" a turbellarian worm, and it responded to a FW dip as I would expect. The interesting part is that I have not seen or heard anyone having YT from Biota with this problem before.

Here is some text from my upcoming fish disease book about it:
Turbellarian Infection (a.k.a. black spot disease, black ich, tang disease)
Turbellarians are a group of worms related to trematodes. They often go undiagnosed as a cause of active infections in fishes except for one group: Paravortex sp.

Cause and symptoms
Since this disease is often seen in newly acquired fish, the suspicion is that the fish bring the disease with them and become infected due to the transport stress they endure.

This parasite causes very distinctive black spots on some species of fish, most notably tangs and surgeonfish. Other fish that may become infected with Paravortex include butterflyfishes, angelfishes, gobies, and jawfishes.

The worm encysts under the fish’s skin, and the fish deposits black melanin pigment as a reaction to the infection. Since these spots are so apparent to even the casual observer, this disease is easily diagnosed, even by beginning aquarists.

Often self-limiting
The problem is that this sometimes causes the aquarist to overreact and begin a treatment that actually might be more harmful than the disease itself. It turns out that many cases of Paravortex infections are self-limiting; unless tank conditions are very poor, the worms often die out and the infection goes away on its own.

Only if the spots increase greatly in number (more than 20 spots on a fish) or the fish begin showing other signs of ill health should a treatment be undertaken.

Cleanliness counts
Some aquarists have reported that careful siphon-cleaning of the aquarium substrate and improving overall cleanliness in the aquarium helps to reduce this infection. It is possible that Paravortex has a non-parasitic, free-living form at one stage of its life cycle and that careful cleaning will remove the parasite at that point.

Some turbellarians are tougher to diagnosis
There are other turbellarians that do not cause melanistic skin changes in fish and are much more difficult to diagnose. Ichthyophaga is one type known to infect fishes and can cause significant fish loss in crowded conditions. Diagnosis of this parasite generally requires a skin scrape.

It’s also noteworthy that treatment with freshwater dips may contort the worm’s body shape so much that positive identification is difficult. In some cases, no real symptoms are seen until fish loss occurs. Under the microscope, look for an oval-shaped worm with a pair of dark eyespots.



Treatment options

Because turbellarians cause a fairly deep-seated infection, they are difficult to remove using freshwater dips or other topical treatments. Other treatment options that have been utilized with varying degrees of effectiveness include:

Praziquantel at 2 mg/l is a safe, commonly used treatment for this malady, but for some reason, it is not always effective.

A 45-minute formalin dip at 166 ppm can be effective, but then the fish must be moved to a non-infected aquarium.

Chloroquine at 15 ppm has been shown to be an effective treatment, but some fish may experience toxic reactions at this dose.

Organophosphate pesticides, such as Trichlorfon (Dylox), have been the treatment of choice for many years but cannot be recommended due to their potential toxicity to humans.

Copper treatments are ineffective, at least at the concentrations well tolerated by fish.


Jay Hemdal

 

[reef-geek]

Hello @Jay Hemdal and @DE FISH, I am on my 2nd week of prazi and I did noticed a few new black dots this morning, the fish is still in my 20g QT, now I wonder how long does it take to eliminate the black ich or should I move the fish to DT to reduce stress?

 

[DE FISH]

Hello @Jay Hemdal and @DE FISH, I am on my 2nd week of prazi and I did noticed a few new black dots this morning, the fish is still in my 20g QT, now I wonder how long does it take to eliminate the black ich or should I move the fish to DT to reduce stress?

Hmmm I’m pretty stumped I’m guessing a formalin bath but I’d wait for the more experienced guys like @Jay Hemdal & @vetteguy53081 to chime in before you do anything. When you say your on your 2nd week you mean the full 14 days I presume ?

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hmmm I’m pretty stumped I’m guessing a formalin bath but I’d wait for the more experienced guys like @Jay Hemdal & @vetteguy53081 to chime in before you do anything. When you say your on your 2nd week you mean the full 14 days I presume ?

They can remain as much as 30 days. Once prazi is used, will take a couple of days to be effective and after 8 days you want to do a water change and reoeat treatment
A freshwater dip will help before retreatment and always add aeration with prazi which reduces both oxygen and appetite
After 2 -3 weeks if issue persists, give it a 45 min formalin bath using quick cure or ruby rally pro, then resume treatment

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Hello @Jay Hemdal and @DE FISH, I am on my 2nd week of prazi and I did noticed a few new black dots this morning, the fish is still in my 20g QT, now I wonder how long does it take to eliminate the black ich or should I move the fish to DT to reduce stress?

I know that praziquantel is routinely suggested to treat turbellarians, but in reality, it is mostly effective against trematodes (flukes) and cestodes (tapeworms). Its effectiveness against other types of worms is limited.

FW or formalin dips work better, but may not break the life cycle of the worms.

Moving the fish to the DT while it has spots is probably not a good idea.

Jay

 

[Grumblez]

got a biota yellow tang from lfs recently,

The key part here is it made a pit stop at a LFS. One of the better ones in my area got an adorable school of 3 in their frag tank that shoaled. I rarely/almost never spot sick fish there but sure enough they all had what looked like ICH.

I think the combination of being so young, shipping stress, and potentially being raised in an almost sterile environment all play a role in the communal LFS systems being bad for these guys. Well of course tangs are also known for being quick to catch ICH etc.

The last factor I'm not sure about. I know in human medicine while being misused/understood when it comes to Covid; being exposed to lots of things, diseases and otherwise at childhood is certainly showing to be beneficial for a variety of health reasons.
But does "natural immunity" have any actual research behind it when it comes to parasitic diseases in fish or otherwise.

Interesting! That does appear to be "black ich" a turbellarian worm, and it responded to a FW dip as I would expect. The interesting part is that I have not seen or heard anyone having YT from Biota with this problem before.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

The key part here is it made a pit stop at a LFS. One of the better ones in my area got an adorable school of 3 in their frag tank that shoaled. I rarely/almost never spot sick fish there but sure enough they all had what looked like ICH.

I think the combination of being so young, shipping stress, and potentially being raised in an almost sterile environment all play a role in the communal LFS systems being bad for these guys. Well of course tangs are also known for being quick to catch ICH etc.

The last factor I'm not sure about. I know in human medicine while being misused/understood when it comes to Covid; being exposed to lots of things, diseases and otherwise at childhood is certainly showing to be beneficial for a variety of health reasons.
But does "natural immunity" have any actual research behind it when it comes to parasitic diseases in fish or otherwise.

Yes, good point. I totally missed that it had made a stop at a LFS. I read it too quickly and saw "I got a YT from Biota"....

LFS, even decent ones, are a real melting pot for fish diseases.

Jay

 

[snaproll101]

They can remain as much as 30 days. Once prazi is used, will take a couple of days to be effective and after 8 days you want to do a water change and reoeat treatment
A freshwater dip will help before retreatment and always add aeration with prazi which reduces both oxygen and appetite
After 2 -3 weeks if issue persists, give it a 45 min formalin bath using quick cure or ruby rally pro, then resume treatment

How do tou keep the qt in check ammonia wise without water changes?

 

[vetteguy53081]

How do tou keep the qt in check ammonia wise without water changes?

I would check every 10-14 days as filtration is often limited in a qt setting

 

[snaproll101]

I would check every 10-14 days as filtration is often limited in a qt setting

Hmm, yeah I set up a 10g while back with seasones media, and put a 3 inch tang in it and ammonia spiked in 4 days. Water changes didnt do a whole lot. Im use red sea ammonia test kit too.... Its been running a while now with no fish, so hopefully it'll support a fish at this point. I just dont get how people just throw together a tank, and dont get ammonia spikes lol. I even used prime, it did nothing

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hmm, yeah I set up a 10g while back with seasones media, and put a 3 inch tang in it and ammonia spiked in 4 days. Water changes didnt do a whole lot. Im use red sea ammonia test kit too.... Its been running a while now with no fish, so hopefully it'll support a fish at this point. I just dont get how people just throw together a tank, and dont get ammonia spikes lol. I even used prime, it did nothing

Generally when a fish is added, it adds to bioload of tank this volume and a rise of ammonia will be likely