Please help!! understanding this no nitrate or phosphate dilemma

[moz71]

So here is my situation tank up for a little over a year always tested 0 nitrate and 0 phosphate (maybe a .03 reading now and then on phosphate) I did not have any algae issues than about a month out of a fallow period in october I started getting GHA and continued to get worse. All the time still reading zero's. Was told the GHA is taking it up (get that) but at same time corals started hurting and was blamed on the zero readings of the N and P and I read should dose them. But this makes no sense to me since wouldn't I just be feeding the GHA even more? How do you all balance this? I cant even seem to keep cheato alive but the GHA continued??? In desperation, I dosed Vibrant the last 2 weeks and although the GHA seems to be declining i still have zero N and P. and corals still unhappy. Monti cap lost most of its color. Just don't know what my course of action should be. any ideas. all test are done with Hanna checker or Saifert and test strips to make sure.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

There isn’t always a happy medium between feeding corals and feeding algae.

I’d dose more for the corals and look to deal with algae in other ways (such as algae eating fish).

 

[Idoc]

Oh, I hated reading your message...it brought back bad memories since i was in the same situation when i started my tank. Zero no3/po4 with no algae growth... then some gha... then dinos! You have setup a situation for dinos to proliferate!

You need to dose nitrates/phosphates because your gha is consuming the po4 faster than the corals. When you dose nitrates and phosohates, you will do it daily for several weeks... then all of a sudden your system will equilibrate and hold steady... at least that's what mine did.

Algae isn't a bad thing... but, you do need to beef up your cuc in preparation for the gha increase.

Many people seem to have dino outbreaks in new systems after using vibrant. I think this is because it kills off the stuff (akgae) that was competing for the resources with the dinos. Then with no competition, the dinos take over.

I dosed Loudwolf Sodium Nitrate and Seachem Flourish Phospherous.

 

[moz71]

Oh, I hated reading your message...it brought back bad memories since i was in the same situation when i started my tank. Zero no3/po4 with no algae growth... then some gha... then dinos! You have setup a situation for dinos to proliferate!

You need to dose nitrates/phosphates because your gha is consuming the po4 faster than the corals. When you dose nitrates and phosohates, you will do it daily for several weeks... then all of a sudden your system will equilibrate and hold steady... at least that's what mine did.

Algae isn't a bad thing... but, you do need to beef up your cuc in preparation for the gha increase.

Many people seem to have dino outbreaks in new systems after using vibrant. I think this is because it kills off the stuff (akgae) that was competing for the resources with the dinos. Then with no competition, the dinos take over.

I dosed Loudwolf Sodium Nitrate and Seachem Flourish Phospherous.

Thank you. When you say it kills the Algae that is competing for the resources. Are you saying once Re algae dies the available n and p will then be available for the Dino’s? If so, then that is my confusion. Would me dosing the n and p also become available for the Dino’s? Sorry I like to think through thing’s logically. I can see need to keep it up for corals. I still do have some ulva in Fuge that is staying alive. And guess hoping I can find a balance before dosing but not sure

 

[Dan_P]

Thank you. When you say it kills the Algae that is competing for the resources. Are you saying once Re algae dies the available n and p will then be available for the Dino’s? If so, then that is my confusion. Would me dosing the n and p also become available for the Dino’s? Sorry I like to think through thing’s logically. I can see need to keep it up for corals. I still do have some ulva in Fuge that is staying alive. And guess hoping I can find a balance before dosing but not sure

Randy’s advice should be your north star in thinking through this problem. Algae and coral both need nitrate and phosphate. This means getting rid of algae and feeding coral is unlikely to be as simple as tweaking nitrate and phosphate concentrations. If it does, it is luck.

Think in terms of having two separate problems to address. Coral that might be doing poorly because of nitrate and phosphate levels and algae growth. Again, forget the notion that tweaking nitrate and phosphate concentrations is a powerful approach for algae elimination. It is not.

If you think nitrate and phosphate are likely the cause of poor coral health follow that line of thinking. At the same time, keep up with algae elimination efforts. Does your system have enough animals that eat the stuff? Can you rent a hundred snails for a couple of months? Are there areas that can be scrubbed or spotted treated? Be skeptical of “easy and safe fixes”.

 

[motortrendz]

I would dose fluconazole to kill the gha while dosing nitrates and phosphates to feed the corals.

Turn off carbon if you have that running for the duration of the fluc treatment. Keep skimmer running. It way take a couple weeks depending on how bad the gha is. As the gha dies it will release po4 back into your system so keep that in mind when dosing po4 into your system.

This worked for me and has worked for others. You have 2 separate issues at hand.

 

[moz71]

Randy’s advice should be your north star in thinking through this problem. Algae and coral both need nitrate and phosphate. This means getting rid of algae and feeding coral is unlikely to be as simple as tweaking nitrate and phosphate concentrations. If it does, it is luck.

Think in terms of having two separate problems to address. Coral that might be doing poorly because of nitrate and phosphate levels and algae growth. Again, forget the notion that tweaking nitrate and phosphate concentrations is a powerful approach for algae elimination. It is not.

If you think nitrate and phosphate are likely the cause of poor coral health follow that line of thinking. At the same time, keep up with algae elimination efforts. Does your system have enough animals that eat the stuff? Can you rent a hundred snails for a couple of months? Are there areas that can be scrubbed or spotted treated? Be skeptical of “easy and safe fixes”.

Thank you all. As far as cuc I do have many snails some turbos, about 10 Trochus and bunch of nerite and cerith but don’t think enough. Only have 1 small hippo with a foxface coming out of qt soon but still don’t think enough . I now kinda get what you are all saying. Thank you all for clarification. I was going crazy trying to think this out

 

[Idoc]

Thank you. When you say it kills the Algae that is competing for the resources. Are you saying once Re algae dies the available n and p will then be available for the Dino’s? If so, then that is my confusion. Would me dosing the n and p also become available for the Dino’s? Sorry I like to think through thing’s logically. I can see need to keep it up for corals. I still do have some ulva in Fuge that is staying alive. And guess hoping I can find a balance before dosing but not sure

Yes, sometimes it seems illogical on how no3/po4 elevation impacts the dinos. I personally don't believe the dinos are specifically using no3/po4... but im not the research scientist, lol. I think the dinos are using other trace elements and debri present... hence the reason i could see big jumps in their numbers after i fed my corals with Reef Chili. Raising the no3/po4 helps by allowing other algaes to build up in the system who then also used those other trace elements more efficiently than the dinos... ultimately using those elements before the dinos si that they starve out. I suspect this is one of the reasons stopping water changes seems to help...the current algaes/dinos use up the trace elements in the system which then are not replaced with water changes... then the algaes survive due to efficiency and the dinos reduce in numbers. But, there is so much speculation about dinos... one person's answer doesn't work for another person!

 

[Scott Campbell]

Thank you all. As far as cuc I do have many snails some turbos, about 10 Trochus and bunch of nerite and cerith but don’t think enough. Only have 1 small hippo with a foxface coming out of qt soon but still don’t think enough . I now kinda get what you are all saying. Thank you all for clarification. I was going crazy trying to think this out

Snails are helpful keeping the glass somewhat cleared but nowhere near as good as a foxface or an urchin. As others have already said - you need to feed the algae along with the corals and then find enough animals to consume the algae. That is the best approach by far. I find it easier to have too many herbivores and then supplement feed with seaweed / nori after all the algae in the tank is depleted. Buy an urchin if there is anything left after you add the foxface.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Thank you. When you say it kills the Algae that is competing for the resources. Are you saying once Re algae dies the available n and p will then be available for the Dino’s? If so, then that is my confusion. Would me dosing the n and p also become available for the Dino’s? Sorry I like to think through thing’s logically. I can see need to keep it up for corals. I still do have some ulva in Fuge that is staying alive. And guess hoping I can find a balance before dosing but not sure

Dinos seem to thrive when other competitors cannot (low nutrients, for example) and are not generally spurred by more nutrients, probably because other organisms outcompete them for trace elements, space, etc.