Please STOP CIPROFLOXACIN DIPS and other antibiotics

[Reef and Dive]

It is surprisingly frequent the use of antibiotics on DIPs these days.

Some users know me as a reefer only, but I am also a doctor.

I will not enter the discussion on holobiont and why bacteria are important for the corals…

But I would like to create a HUGE ALERT about dipping corals on antibiotics, specially ciprofloxacin and amoxicillin!

Those antibiotics are EXTREMELY important for human treatments.

I also believe it is not really necessary to explain about natural selection and bacteria resistance to antibiotics, what I consider to be known by most users.

There are many human substances we use for special purposes and I am not against this (fish treatments, fluconazole, in tank azithromycin, milbemycin etc).

But, with CIPRO and AMOXICILLIN for DIPS what we have been doing each day more is very wrong, and dangerous. I’m talking about public health.

We are frequently throwing 2 fresh, active and very important antibiotics down the drain. This WILL (not could) create increased bacteria resistance on the environment. Bacteria resistance is already a very important matter on human health care and those are not antibiotics we could stop counting on.

Please I ask you spread word of this very important problem we can be creating.

 

[A Young Reefer]

I notice that people underestimate the overuse of antibiotics, and think that bacterial resistance is something out of a sci-fi movie. Not knowing that its something somewhat common and antibiotic resistant bacteria are present as we speak. If I had to bet on the next pandemic (god forbid) I think this is how it might start.
Thank you for sharing.

 

[JCOLE]

I used Cipro on my tank a couple months ago because I lost over 90% of my Acro's to a bad pathogen. It turned my tank completely around and I 100% support it for in tank treatments.

However, I do see where you are coming from with dips as this is usually getting dumped down the drain or in the environment. This leads to me to ask the question. Is there anything that can be done to the dip afterwards to cause antibiotics to be inactive? I know light causes Cipro to lose it's potency so wondering if exposed to light for a period of time would be the way? Just a thought.

 

[Reef and Dive]

I used Cipro on my tank a couple months ago because I lost over 90% of my Acro's to a bad pathogen. It turned my tank completely around and I 100% support it for in tank treatments.

However, I do see where you are coming from with dips as this is usually getting dumped down the drain or in the environment. This leads to me to ask the question. Is there anything that can be done to the dip afterwards to cause antibiotics to be inactive? I know light causes Cipro to lose it's potency so wondering if exposed to light for a period of time would be the way? Just a thought.

It could be removed from the water with activated carbon. I do not believe people will do this to remove at all. UV also could cause rapid inactivation, but not common light.

 

[FishTruck]

Agree 100% - also from a physicians perspective. Antibiotics should be used for specific reasons and goals. It is also theoretically bad for the fish to disrupt it's natural flora with cipro. About 25% of my day at work is dealing with patients who have been over exposed to strong antibiotics and now suffer from MORE infections due to disruption of the natural flora. Three exposures per year is enough to cause this problem in humans at this point.

It should also be noted that the amount of cipro used for cattle is measured in the metric ton. Shocking.

Using antibiotics for a known infection is a different matter. That is the purpose. Using chemiclean for cyano after conservative measures fail, for example, is something I have done more than once.

I think responsible removal of the antibiotic with carbon and UV, before the water change, is a good thing to do.

 

[Sink_or_Swim]

Thank you for sharing! I'm very aware of antibiotic resistant bacteria being an issue for people (my little sister struggled with a serious infection as a teenager that was resistant to the usual antibiotics and then almost died from bacterial meningitis as an adult as it wasn't responding to the antibiotics the doctors tried). I had never considered the connection between things we use in our reef tanks and this issue however! Good post.

 

[MohH]

It is surprisingly frequent the use of antibiotics on DIPs these days.

Some users know me as a reefer only, but I am also a doctor.

I will not enter the discussion on holobiont and why bacteria are important for the corals…

But I would like to create a HUGE ALERT about dipping corals on antibiotics, specially ciprofloxacin and amoxicillin!

Those antibiotics are EXTREMELY important for human treatments.

I also believe it is not really necessary to explain about natural selection and bacteria resistance to antibiotics, what I consider to be known by most users.

There are many human substances we use for special purposes and I am not against this (fish treatments, fluconazole, in tank azithromycin, milbemycin etc).

But, with CIPRO and AMOXICILLIN for DIPS what we have been doing each day more is very wrong, and dangerous. I’m talking about public health.

We are frequently throwing 2 fresh, active and very important antibiotics down the drain. This WILL (not could) create increased bacteria resistance on the environment. Bacteria resistance is already a very important matter on human health care and those are not antibiotics we could stop counting on.

Please I ask you spread word of this very important problem we can be creating.

I think this is one of the reasons meds for fish is no longer readily available in canada… because of misuse and overuse … then it all gets dumped down our drains …. And where does it endup… yep we all know…. It wont take a lot to just run some carbon in what ever QT system we use before dumping the water. Its a shame we have to be told this.

 

[Reef and Dive]

Thank you for sharing! I'm very aware of antibiotic resistant bacteria being an issue for people (my little sister struggled with a serious infection as a teenager that was resistant to the usual antibiotics and then almost died from bacterial meningitis as an adult as it wasn't responding to the antibiotics the doctors tried). I had never considered the connection between things we use in our reef tanks and this issue however! Good post.

Exactly. Very few of us will have the chances to see these problems.

 

[ELChingonsReef]

I've used ciprofloxacin as a dip along with chemiclean and iodine. It's only as a last resort to save a very expensive coral. But I would never treat the entire system with antibiotics. I've never had any luck saving sps with it. If I see a coral struggling for a long period of time I will make a small antibiotic dip and place the coral in the solution for a few hours. I always wondered if the next time that coral looks unhealthy would it be resistant to antibiotics?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

It is surprisingly frequent the use of antibiotics on DIPs these days.

Some users know me as a reefer only, but I am also a doctor.

I will not enter the discussion on holobiont and why bacteria are important for the corals…

But I would like to create a HUGE ALERT about dipping corals on antibiotics, specially ciprofloxacin and amoxicillin!

Those antibiotics are EXTREMELY important for human treatments.

I also believe it is not really necessary to explain about natural selection and bacteria resistance to antibiotics, what I consider to be known by most users.

There are many human substances we use for special purposes and I am not against this (fish treatments, fluconazole, in tank azithromycin, milbemycin etc).

But, with CIPRO and AMOXICILLIN for DIPS what we have been doing each day more is very wrong, and dangerous. I’m talking about public health.

We are frequently throwing 2 fresh, active and very important antibiotics down the drain. This WILL (not could) create increased bacteria resistance on the environment. Bacteria resistance is already a very important matter on human health care and those are not antibiotics we could stop counting on.

Please I ask you spread word of this very important problem we can be creating.

First of all, I agree 100%.
Given that -even long before COVID- there is/has been way too much "antibacterial" soap, etc being used (when the point is to remove germs, not necessarily kill them), how large of an effect do you think aquarium hobby antibiotic use contributes overall to bacterial resistance?

For people who do use antibiotics for coral dips (aside from iodine, I've never even thought of doing this, especially prophylactically), would adding a handful of GAC to the dip container be enough to neutralize the antibiotics? Education and awareness are extremely important, but so is providing simple solutions that everyone can use.

 

[t5Nitro]

I think we'll have to move on towards broad spectrum. Let's go with cefepime next. Onwards to meropenem.

Jokes aside, this is probably a stupid thing hobbyists are doing in and around their aquariums.

 

[Spare time]

It is surprisingly frequent the use of antibiotics on DIPs these days.

Some users know me as a reefer only, but I am also a doctor.

I will not enter the discussion on holobiont and why bacteria are important for the corals…

But I would like to create a HUGE ALERT about dipping corals on antibiotics, specially ciprofloxacin and amoxicillin!

Those antibiotics are EXTREMELY important for human treatments.

I also believe it is not really necessary to explain about natural selection and bacteria resistance to antibiotics, what I consider to be known by most users.

There are many human substances we use for special purposes and I am not against this (fish treatments, fluconazole, in tank azithromycin, milbemycin etc).

But, with CIPRO and AMOXICILLIN for DIPS what we have been doing each day more is very wrong, and dangerous. I’m talking about public health.

We are frequently throwing 2 fresh, active and very important antibiotics down the drain. This WILL (not could) create increased bacteria resistance on the environment. Bacteria resistance is already a very important matter on human health care and those are not antibiotics we could stop counting on.

Please I ask you spread word of this very important problem we can be creating.

People in the hobby also don't understand the impacts of antibiotics on the microbiomes of the organisms we keep. Its ridiculous how careless people are with antibiotics.

 

[flagg37]

I’ve seen way more doctors flippant about antibiotics than reefers. Our kids have been prescribed them numerous times. We make an appointment to make sure it’s nothing serious, but rarely fill the prescription.

We make up such a small fraction of people using antibiotics that if laws were passed prohibiting their use in our hobby, there wouldn’t be a measurable difference.

 

[Charles Zinn]

Agree 100% - also from a physicians perspective. Antibiotics should be used for specific reasons and goals. It is also theoretically bad for the fish to disrupt it's natural flora with cipro. About 25% of my day at work is dealing with patients who have been over exposed to strong antibiotics and now suffer from MORE infections due to disruption of the natural flora. Three exposures per year is enough to cause this problem in humans at this point.

It should also be noted that the amount of cipro used for cattle is measured in the metric ton. Shocking.

Using antibiotics for a known infection is a different matter. That is the purpose. Using chemiclean for cyano after conservative measures fail, for example, is something I have done more than once.

I think responsible removal of the antibiotic with carbon and UV, before the water change, is a good thing to do.

Have you considered how much antibiotics and hormones already are in our food? And that all plagues came from animals. Seems Vegan would be the way to go. Whole Food Plant based?

 

[Charles Zinn]

AnimLs poop in streams and creeks which goes into rivers lakes and oceans...plus pesticides bring red tide.

 

[Thales]

I get the feeling that cipro was first used because someone had some extra, and now cipro is one of the AB's that people think they need to use. There are a ton of non human important AB's around that will likely have a useful effect.

 

[Spare time]

Have you considered how much antibiotics and hormones already are in our food? And that all plagues came from animals. Seems Vegan would be the way to go. Whole Food Plant based?

Vegan isn't the same as antibiotic free lol

 

[Falreef]

It is surprisingly frequent the use of antibiotics on DIPs these days.

Some users know me as a reefer only, but I am also a doctor.

I will not enter the discussion on holobiont and why bacteria are important for the corals…

But I would like to create a HUGE ALERT about dipping corals on antibiotics, specially ciprofloxacin and amoxicillin!

Those antibiotics are EXTREMELY important for human treatments.

I also believe it is not really necessary to explain about natural selection and bacteria resistance to antibiotics, what I consider to be known by most users.

There are many human substances we use for special purposes and I am not against this (fish treatments, fluconazole, in tank azithromycin, milbemycin etc).

But, with CIPRO and AMOXICILLIN for DIPS what we have been doing each day more is very wrong, and dangerous. I’m talking about public health.

We are frequently throwing 2 fresh, active and very important antibiotics down the drain. This WILL (not could) create increased bacteria resistance on the environment. Bacteria resistance is already a very important matter on human health care and those are not antibiotics we could stop counting on.

Please I ask you spread word of this very important problem we can be creating.

This is indeed correct. We are creating a very dangerous environment

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

AnimLs poop in streams and creeks which goes into rivers lakes and oceans...plus pesticides bring red tide.

What does this have to do with the m overuse/unnecessary use of antibiotics?

 

[FishTruck]

Have you considered how much antibiotics and hormones already are in our food? And that all plagues came from animals. Seems Vegan would be the way to go. Whole Food Plant based?

The tonnage of antibiotics dropped into cattle fields and chicken farms creates antibiotic resistant bacteria, bred in the gut of the cattle and excreted in the dirt. The bacteria... it's just everywhere now. You can't protect yourself by being vegan - although you do win the moral high ground of not supporting antibiotic fed cattle and will enjoy other health benefits.

Your own relatively benign E Coli in your gut will typically out compete the more virulent bacteria (in a healthy person), but when you kill that benign gut flora, you open the door to whatever else is out there. It's usually traceable to taking antibiotics repeatedly - in my experience.

The general population is colonized with cipro resistant E Coli at a rate of about 25% in my own office antibiogram. Cipro resistant E Coli was about 1% in 1997. These drug resistant E Coli are now normal gut bacteria for many people.

Do I want a tank full of fish with antibiotic resistant bacteria in their guts?

The message that the actual meat has antibiotics and hormones in it - is mostly myth and not really the problem - but it's easier for the general public to imagine. The message is the same either way... raising cattle and poultry in risky conditions and using antibiotics as a crutch leads to humans getting sick from antibiotic resistant bacteria.

While the effect of doctors and aquarists is negligible in terms of tonnage of cipro dumped into the environment (versus the cattle industry) - it poses direct risks to those getting antibiotics for trivial reasons or putting their hands in tanks loaded with antibiotic resistant bacteria. Also, might be bad for the fish. And just like you clean up after your dog, doing what you can to clean the drug out of your tank water before you flush it is just the right thing to do. Likewise, disposing of your unused pills and sharps properly is just the right thing to do.

Your aquarium is you own little private poultry farm.

Plagues come from animals when a virus jumps species, and the new species has no immunity. This typically happens from birds to humans (H1N1 - aka the Spanish Flu) - and probably not from eating crows - just from environmental exposure. This can also happen from animal husbandry, for swine flu especially, but again, being vegan won't save you. It's usually the person in contact with the live animal, not the one who eats the cooked animal, who is most at risk.