Please Stop Stating This Is An Expensive Hobby.

thejuggernaut · Oct 23, 2014

tyler1503 said:
I'm guessing that's a stab at me. If so, then that was low. If not, then I apologize if you've just so happened to choose the same phrasing I did, but I think that was specifically aimed at me and what I said. This is a place for different opinions and perspectives to be shared regarding the one thing everyone here has in common. Marine tanks. Not a place to start arguments.
I could retaliate and tell you how wrong you are in saying I am "ignorant, stubborn and stupid". But I will not let this get out of hand and have the pair of us potentially banned from R2R.
I'm here to meet fellow reefers, share and discuss our tanks, ask and answer a few questions and speak about cool marine tank related things. I don't want to argue with people who are going to jump down my throat and tell me I am "stupid" for believing it's possible to spend less than $10k+ on a box.
One last thing, making up ridiculous analogies that go beyond exaggeration won't help you prove a point. I'm not saying "yea, just dump that fish in an old ice cream container and throw a few handfuls of cooking salt in the tap water! Brand new tank, $5!"

Not a stab, just an observation. But I find it strange that you would get upset for someone using the exact same language you did to describe someone who held an opposing view. You are correct that this is a place to exchange ideas and knowledge in a positive and respectful way, however, when someone makes a blanket statement that I am either ignorant, stubborn or stupid, because I feel that the hobby requires a certain level of monetary commitment in order to meet the level of quality I want in my system, I take exception. You seem to be an active member with allot to contribute, but in that one instance I felt you came off rude, and I took offense. I apologize if I fueled the fire and contributed in any thread derailment.

Respect and Warm Regards,
Taylor

tyler1503 · Oct 23, 2014

thejuggernaut said:
Not a stab, just an observation. But I find it strange that you would get upset for someone using the exact same language you did to describe someone who held an opposing view. You are correct that this is a place to exchange ideas and knowledge in a positive and respectful way, however, when someone makes a blanket statement that I am either ignorant, stubborn or stupid, because I feel that the hobby requires a certain level of monetary commitment in order to meet the level of quality I want in my system, I take exception. You seem to be an active member with allot to contribute, but in that one instance I felt you came off rude, and I took offense. I apologize if I fueled the fire and contributed in any thread derailment.

Respect and Warm Regards,
Taylor

I wasn't upset, I was just wondering where you got the idea I was any of those things. I can be stubborn, but given this particular thread I don't believe I was. I was agreeing it can be costly, but it can be easily manageable.
I admit, those words I chose were a bit abrasive and I should have worded it in a more respectful way. I was not singling you or anyone else out when I said that I feel it is any of those things. My comment too, was a general observation.
I feel the cost of this hobby, is purely based on what the hobbiest wants to spend. No one is forcing us to buy that $900 controller, but a lot of us are choosing to. It's not impossible to run a tank with only $500 (or less) invested in it. It may not live up to expectations, or be the prettiest tank out there, but it's certainly possible. As it was mentioned before, a lot of college students are doing it and some of those tanks are incredible.
I apologise for offending you, it was not my intention. I hope you can accept this apology.
There's no hard feelings here....atleast on my end.
Have a good one

akitareefer · Oct 23, 2014

IMO any hobby is expensive. Sure you can set up a tank for cheap but many beginners don't have the knowledge and insight to properly maintain a low cost set up. Low cost beginners often cause us reefers a lot of distress. If you can't fork out the money for a viable setup and don't have the time to research, this is the wrong hobby. Might I suggest collecting beanie babies instead, they're not living creatures

Diesel · Oct 23, 2014

Might I suggest collecting beanie babies instead, they're not living creatures

HEY................ my daughter has a 35k collection of them, not living creatures but it can be expensive.

Daniel@R2R · Oct 23, 2014

Diesel said:
HEY................ my daughter has a 35k collection of them, not living creatures but it can be expensive.

Collecting beanie babies is an expensive hobby!! Don't do it unless you want to lose your life savings and forfeit your retirement!!!

...see what I did there?

:becky:

hart24601 · Oct 23, 2014

akitareefer said:
IMO any hobby is expensive. Sure you can set up a tank for cheap but many beginners don't have the knowledge and insight to properly maintain a low cost set up. Low cost beginners often cause us reefers a lot of distress. If you can't fork out the money for a viable setup and don't have the time to research, this is the wrong hobby. Might I suggest collecting beanie babies instead, they're not living creatures

I was just going to say something similar. After you get some experience in this hobby you can can do a setup for quite a bit less money. Even better if you can score used stuff and know enough about equipment to see if you are getting a deal or flushing money away. Heck, when I started I didn't even know about all these forums online for quite a while.

For someone just starting who doesn't know about online resources and only uses their LFS, like many people do, or doesn't know enough to buy used equipment, it's going to be pretty spendy. There is even a steep learning curve when it comes to equipment and what really works well. I wasted $$ on stuff based on LFS and things like amazon reviews before I found better resources. Of course many of the tanks on RC are really high-end and if you went on that advice it would cost a fortune.

Price out new equipment for a stony coral system and it adds up pretty quick.

Daniel@R2R · Oct 23, 2014

How does buying new vs used keep someone from buying bad equipment or ensure a viable setup? I bought used equipment bc I couldn't have afforded to start with brand new stuff... saved a ton of money, and got decent equipment. New doesn't mean good...it just means never used. Lots of new reefers go to their LFS (which may or may not be reputable) or Petco and buy new expensive equipment that won't help them in reef keeping. I would think the best route to give someone thinking about starting a reef tank would be to hook them up with a good mentor or reef club. IMO, the best thing you can tell someone is to research everything before starting a tank, and give them a good source to do so. ...makes more sense to me than saying "it's expensive."

Marquiseo · Oct 23, 2014

thejuggernaut said:
You cannot have a reef tank for $100.00 dollars.

Possible with a softie tank. The light requirement would be the most expensive part. There are cheap fixtures made by aquamedic that can sustain softies. It can be done but not for what you are wanting.

hart24601 · Oct 23, 2014

mdbannister said:
How does buying new vs used keep someone from buying bad equipment or ensure a viable setup? I bought used equipment bc I couldn't have afforded to start with brand new stuff... saved a ton of money, and got decent equipment. New doesn't mean good...it just means never used. Lots of new reefers go to their LFS (which may or may not be reputable) or Petco and buy new expensive equipment that won't help them in reef keeping. I would think the best route to give someone thinking about starting a reef tank would be to hook them up with a good mentor or reef club. IMO, the best thing you can tell someone is to research everything before starting a tank, and give them a good source to do so. ...makes more sense to me than saying "it's expensive."

As I attempted to say in my post it's because you must know enough about what you are buying to determine the quality of used equipment. By a fancy vortech without listening to it run? Get it home and needs a new dryside. Buy a skimmer without seeing it work? Oh, the pump needs at least a new impeller if not the entire motor. Heck even buying a used tank is a risk unless you know 100% it doesn't leak. The used stand on that new 220 was welded as someone's 1st experiment? Buy a sweet lighting setup - oh it needs bulbs and a ballast or maybe the LEDs were run too hot and have all browned out. Knowing to check these things comes with experience. New products can be returned if defective. Of course the best route is to join a local club or find someone with experience, but many folks don't know those things even exist.

hart24601 · Oct 23, 2014

Somethings you just have to learn on your own as well. Look at the amount of conflicting information even on sites we like. Questions simple like "should I get a pre-drilled tank" have answers ranging from "YES! You will be very happy" to "It's not a big deal, I have never had one and (shows a pic of their beautiful tank) my tanks are amazing". You even get posts being really snotty like "If you don't know that then you're in the wrong hobby". There is lots of good advice, but how do you know what is good and bad when you start?

Start getting into lighting and the responses are all over the place as you know, and how many fights are there on forums about it? After a while we get good at filtering the info, but it can be really confusing. A LFS is simple, they person there says what you need. Granted most the time it's not correct, but it's more confidence building than online. Plus how many threads are there about supporting your LFS? Support but don't listen? How can a beginner even judge if a LFS is top notch or just making a quick buck?

All that stuff costs a beginner $$. Sure some people avoid it, but not most.

Daniel@R2R · Oct 23, 2014

hart24601 said:
As I attempted to say in my post it's because you must know enough about what you are buying to determine the quality of used equipment. By a fancy vortech without listening to it run? Get it home and needs a new dryside. Buy a skimmer without seeing it work? Oh, the pump needs at least a new impeller if not the entire motor. Heck even buying a used tank is a risk unless you know 100% it doesn't leak. The used stand on that new 220 was welded as someone's 1st experiment? Buy a sweet lighting setup - oh it needs bulbs and a ballast or maybe the LEDs were run too hot and have all browned out. Knowing to check these things comes with experience. New products can be returned if defective. Of course the best route is to join a local club or find someone with experience, but many folks don't know those things even exist.

Hmm...I understand your point, but checking out used equipment to know if it's what you're looking for and if it works is something most of us learn whether we're in the hobby or not. (For example, I knew to have a used cell phone checked to be sure it worked and had a clean ESN before I got into the reef hobby.) Also, I think we're addressing the issue of those of us in the reefing community telling those thinking about getting in that "it's expensive" as if warning them away. And, I'd even venture to say that the OP had in mind the common idea that one has to invest $1,000's just to get started (this is the unfortunate common "advice" that many reefers give). That's what I was building my post around, and in that scenario, as a member of the reefing community, I should point them to these information resources rather than warning them away. As far as buying new versus used, you state in your post that you wasted money on what the LFS recommended. So buying new did not save you from these issues. That's my point.

Btw, I'd venture to guess that most of us who have invested $1,000's now did not do so on our first setup (at least not getting started). It's after we get bitten by the reefing bug that we start really pouring money in...and I don't think that's a bad route to take. Why would you jump into a new hobby with no experience dropping $1,000's? I wouldn't...again, that comes later once you're sure this is something you'll enjoy and are in for the long haul. Understand, I'm not saying save money by getting lousy outdated equipment, but if someone shops around and does their research (so they know why they're buying what they're buying), a decent adequate setup can be had (40B, T5 lights, skimmer, powerheads, etc.) without breaking the bank. The idea of researching and shopping around in order to get the right thing for what you want to do at the best price isn't a skill acquired in this hobby...it's just good management/administration skills that many of us had long before we started reefing. :thumb:

Marquiseo · Oct 23, 2014

Under $100 softie tank build:

Petco 10G Tank - ~$13.70 during $1perGal sale
Dry rock @2.99 per lb for 2lbs - ~$6.41
Hydor Koralia Nano Circ pump - ~$26.74
10g Pre-mixed saltwater @ LFS - ~$8.02
Aqueon Single T8 Fluorescent Fixture with bulb- ~$31.82

Total: ~$86.69 (~$13.31 for first softies)

Costs can be reduced because some of the equipment can be obtained from fellow reefers for less or FREE such as 2lbs of dry rock, 10 gallon tank, Softie corals, and the koralia pump. Water changes will sustain this tank so every every month(2.5G WC every week), the person will get 10g of premixed water for $8.02 (basically a meal from a fast food restaurant).

See it can be done.....

Daniel@R2R · Oct 23, 2014

Maybe you're hitting on the issue I have with the "it's expensive" tag line with this statement:

hart24601 said:
You even get posts being really snotty like "If you don't know that then you're in the wrong hobby".

I hate that line, and I believe in arming people with information rather than putting them off. It actually hurts me to see someone who is excited and interested in reefing being told "it's expensive" as if it's a bad idea for them. I love this hobby, and I want anyone who is responsible and able to participate if they would like. So, I would never tell someone "sure, it doesn't cost anything!", but I would rather walk them through and show them what can be done and what is realistic and equip them for success. This is why I'm put off by the "it's expensive" thing.

It also hurts me to see a new reefer who makes a mistake (which many of us do when we first start out), and they're blasted for being "in the wrong hobby"...but i digress...that's another conversation...I just think there are kinder ways to address and help people.

hart24601 · Oct 23, 2014

I too hate when people bash someone coming into the hobby. I had a FOWLR tank when I moved to marine that was just a mess, but after I found forums and learned to screen advise it got much better. My 1st reef tank was/is a biocube14 I bought new. Picked up DFS premium live nano rock and a couple cheap biocube powerheads. Bought RO water at walmart (tested with my TDS meter) to save money. Listened to forum advise and ditched the bioballs, got a fuge light, media basket and quickly found out I needed a ATO in that small tank. All said and done with stand it was under $500, which I still consider not too bad for a new reef setup. As I grew I swapped out the lights for LEDs, got a MP10 and finally got a dosing pump when kalk couldn't keep up.

I don't really consider the initial $500 all that much for a tank that has been a lot of fun the past 4 years. I do consider the upgrades later on as not needed, those were more for fun. Some might say that 500 bucks was crazy, but that is an example of what I think is a reasonable budget to have success. I am not trying to argue that it can't be done with less money, just that people should realize how easy it gets expensive.

Dextereef · Oct 23, 2014

This whole idea is just like saying......"please stop stating that buying food from the grocery store is expensive"...so yes, you can buy only ramen noodles and get out without spending a boat-load of money but what is your experience going to be like? Same goes for the hobby. Everyone wants an enjoyable experience and a good looking tank. Few are satisfied with just a softy tank (hence the development of multiple tank syndrome) and in order to get that ultra cool look some dollars will have to be spent. Mucho Dinero, in fact.

So can we all agree that opening statement is subjective and in order for this to become an objective statement we should add to it something along the lines of....Please stop stating that this is an expensive hobby, you can buy used or just be happy with a softy tank. LOL

Or add...lots of money means different things to different people so ignore opening statement.....:wof:

Marquiseo · Oct 23, 2014

Dextereef said:
This whole idea is just like saying......"please stop stating that buying food from the grocery store is expensive"...so yes, you can buy only ramen noodles and get out without spending a boat-load of money but what is your experience going to be like? Same goes for the hobby. Everyone wants an enjoyable experience and a good looking tank. Few are satisfied with just a softy tank (hence the development of multiple tank syndrome) and in order to get that ultra cool look some dollars will have to be spent. Mucho Dinero, in fact.

So can we all agree that opening statement is subjective and in order for this to become an objective statement we should add to it something along the lines of....Please stop stating that this is an expensive hobby, you can buy used or just be happy with a softy tank. LOL Or add...lots of money means different things to different people so ignore opening statement.....:wof:

The point is not to lead with a statement that isn't 100% true. It depends on the initial intent of the person who stated that to the hobbyist. If you invested $1000s then that's your doing because you chose not to try an alternate. I was just giving an example of how it is possible to have a tank under $100 which would be able to sustain softies or other low light corals at most. That is a good start for beginners. This statement is not for more seasoned hobbyist because after time, they felt the need to get the more expensive or new equipment .

Marquiseo · Oct 23, 2014

Anyways, thanks everyone for commenting. I knew this topic would generate a lot of responses due to the mixes views on this subject. Let's keep it going!