PLEASE STOP USING TTM-IT'S BARBARIC

[Tamberav]

So then it would make sense that 'TTM' should be re-written to include these things - or do you only do this once you see a problem. Example I buy 5 fish. on day 3 of TTM, one of them developed what looks like velvet what do you do.

I do it the day I receive them unless they are delicate enough to warrant an observation tank to get eating and destress first. Even if they are going in observation they get a peroxide bath first, all fish get this.

There is a hybrid TTM method that can be found on humblefish's forum (I think it used to be posted here too, might still be).

 

[arking_mark]

So then it would make sense that 'TTM' should be re-written to include these things - or do you only do this once you see a problem. Example I buy 5 fish. on day 3 of TTM, one of them developed what looks like velvet what do you do.

Pick your poison. You can run TTM for velvet which is more work. Or if you suspect velvet, "restart" TTM for velvet. I prefer the latter as velvet is less common than ich and I might switch to Copper treatment for velvet as it's a superfast killer.

 

[Powertool-2010]

I do it the day I receive them unless they are delicate enough to warrant an observation tank to get eating and destress first. Even if they are going in observation they get a peroxide bath first, all fish get this.

There is a hybrid TTM method that can be found on humblefish's forum (I think it used to be posted here too, might still be).

Here is the link to the thread and his forum

Hybrid TTM to treat all parasites!

10/9/2022: Jay Hemdal and the current Fish Medic staff are suggesting that people find other treatments rather than TTM. It has some substantial drawbacks: “Tank chasing” method (Tank Transfer Method - TTM) A mostly theoretical method for treating Cryptocaryon infections takes advantage of...

www.reef2reef.com

Hybrid TTM to treat all parasites!

Important: Tank Transfer Method is most effective when water temperature and salinity are kept within this range... Temp: 24C/76F - 28C/82F Salinity: 27ppt / 1.020 SG - 35ppt / 1.026 SG Tank Transfer Method is an effective (non-chemical) treatment for Marine Ich. However, it's weakness has...

humble.fish

 

[Gogol_frag]

At the risk of starting a war, please see thread title.

TTM is, in my not so humble opinion, one of the worst things to hit the hobby in my 20+ years doing it. Why do people love it? In my opinion, it comes down to two things:

1) I call it the **** (online vendor) effect. Back in the day, they invented 14 day guarantees. That shifts the financial burden of QTing from customer to supplier. In short, people don't so much care, or at least don't feel the $ pinch, of QT losses. Trading QT losses for safer display makes economic sense with guarantee. But it's barbaric. We have an obligation to do what we can to assure the survival of the fish we purchase.
2) People love to brag/post about their prowess in the hobby. Hey look, we have this new QT protocol and my fish came through it great. And thus it spreads. People are MUCH MUCH less likely to post-man I"m an idiot. I tried this new method and killed a bunch of fish. Don't make the same mistake I did.

Why do I think TTM is horrible:

1) Fish when shipped, or even moved from store to home, are by definition highly stressed. You're now taking this stressed fish and putting it in a way too small, totally uncycled, often unfiltered tank. It violates every tenet the hobby was built on.
2) Letting a new fish repeatedly go through a tank cycle, and fighting against it with water changes and TT is super stressful on already stressed fish. Sure, some fish survive it, but way too many don't.
3) repeatedly catching and moving new arrivals from tank to tank also highly stressful
4) I understand the biology of TTM and in theory it is very effective in treating ich. Since all parasites have different life cycles, it is ONLY effective against ich, and ignores all other issues. Why focus QT attention on a single problem, when there are lots of potential issues, all of which will be made worse by having super stressed out fish.
5) Ich is the easiest issue to deal with in QT. If you see it, a quick course of cupramine is 100% effective, MUCH MUCH cheaper and easier, and much much much much much less stressful on fish than TTM.

I absolutely 100% do not see any sense in TTM

Better to have a proper QT tank, observe new arrivals and treat as

At the risk of starting a war, please see thread title.

TTM is, in my not so humble opinion, one of the worst things to hit the hobby in my 20+ years doing it. Why do people love it? In my opinion, it comes down to two things:

1) I call it the **** (online vendor) effect. Back in the day, they invented 14 day guarantees. That shifts the financial burden of QTing from customer to supplier. In short, people don't so much care, or at least don't feel the $ pinch, of QT losses. Trading QT losses for safer display makes economic sense with guarantee. But it's barbaric. We have an obligation to do what we can to assure the survival of the fish we purchase.
2) People love to brag/post about their prowess in the hobby. Hey look, we have this new QT protocol and my fish came through it great. And thus it spreads. People are MUCH MUCH less likely to post-man I"m an idiot. I tried this new method and killed a bunch of fish. Don't make the same mistake I did.

Why do I think TTM is horrible:

1) Fish when shipped, or even moved from store to home, are by definition highly stressed. You're now taking this stressed fish and putting it in a way too small, totally uncycled, often unfiltered tank. It violates every tenet the hobby was built on.
2) Letting a new fish repeatedly go through a tank cycle, and fighting against it with water changes and TT is super stressful on already stressed fish. Sure, some fish survive it, but way too many don't.
3) repeatedly catching and moving new arrivals from tank to tank also highly stressful
4) I understand the biology of TTM and in theory it is very effective in treating ich. Since all parasites have different life cycles, it is ONLY effective against ich, and ignores all other issues. Why focus QT attention on a single problem, when there are lots of potential issues, all of which will be made worse by having super stressed out fish.
5) Ich is the easiest issue to deal with in QT. If you see it, a quick course of cupramine is 100% effective, MUCH MUCH cheaper and easier, and much much much much much less stressful on fish than TTM.

I absolutely 100% do not see any sense in TTM

Better to have a proper QT tank, observe new arrivals and treat as necessary.

Michael

Hey got a question for y'all (on the topic of QT). If you buy quarantined fish do you quarantine it again upon receipt, or only acclimitise it?

I have never bought quarantined fish before but am about to receive some in a coupla weeks.

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

Please stop dosing this and that. Please dont add medicine or medicines to your displays. Why we recommend qt or hospital tanks if needed.

Vibrant is nothing.
Mb7 isnt a bottle of bullet proof.
Fritz turbo start dosent turbo anything. Stop believing liquid product is good.

I cant sell or make or find you a bottle of pour and instant reef tank. Or pour a cpl caps and its all good and better. Im sorry it dosent exsist.
D

 

[MnFish1]

Please stop dosing this and that. Please dont add medicine or medicines to your displays. Why we recommend qt or hospital tanks if needed.

Vibrant is nothing.
Mb7 isnt a bottle of bullet proof.
Fritz turbo start dosent turbo anything. Stop believing liquid product is good.

I cant sell or make or find you a bottle of pour and instant reef tank. Or pour a cpl caps and its all good and better. Im sorry it dosent exsist.
D

No offense - unless you have any evidence for these claims, why should anyone believe you?

1. I agree with you about not dosing medications/antibiotics into a display tank. A hospital tank/individual set up is best.
2. I have no experience with MB7
3. I have had great experience with vibrant - and it works well - with certain caveats.
4. You can indeed set up a tank immediately adding whatever you want and be successful with Fritz turbo start.

3 and 4 are not just my opinions - there are hundreds of posts documenting this. Do you think that LFS who start up a store - cycle their tanks for 6 weeks, hoping, that it will look good? When people take tanks to Aquarium shows, do you think they set them up in the auditorium for 6 months?

I guess I would like to hear your rationale scientifically 'why', you can't add live rock to a tank, add bacteria, and not have a functioning reef? PS - the adage 'nothing good happens quickly in this hobby' is not an allowed response. PS - I'm not trying to be overly critical, only asking for evidence. PPS. I'm also in agreement with you that adding unnecessary bacteria, elements, etc is overdone in this hobby, BUT - when needed these products work quite well (the products you said don't work above)

 

[arking_mark]

No offense - unless you have any evidence for these claims, why should anyone believe you?

1. I agree with you about not dosing medications/antibiotics into a display tank. A hospital tank/individual set up is best.
2. I have no experience with MB7
3. I have had great experience with vibrant - and it works well - with certain caveats.
4. You can indeed set up a tank immediately adding whatever you want and be successful with Fritz turbo start.

3 and 4 are not just my opinions - there are hundreds of posts documenting this. Do you think that LFS who start up a store - cycle their tanks for 6 weeks, hoping, that it will look good? When people take tanks to Aquarium shows, do you think they set them up in the auditorium for 6 months?

I guess I would like to hear your rationale scientifically 'why', you can't add live rock to a tank, add bacteria, and not have a functioning reef? PS - the adage 'nothing good happens quickly in this hobby' is not an allowed response. PS - I'm not trying to be overly critical, only asking for evidence. PPS. I'm also in agreement with you that adding unnecessary bacteria, elements, etc is overdone in this hobby, BUT - when needed these products work quite well (the products you said don't work above)

I'm guessing it was sarcasm.

 

[Gogol_frag]

No offense - unless you have any evidence for these claims, why should anyone believe you?

1. I agree with you about not dosing medications/antibiotics into a display tank. A hospital tank/individual set up is best.
2. I have no experience with MB7
3. I have had great experience with vibrant - and it works well - with certain caveats.
4. You can indeed set up a tank immediately adding whatever you want and be successful with Fritz turbo start.

3 and 4 are not just my opinions - there are hundreds of posts documenting this. Do you think that LFS who start up a store - cycle their tanks for 6 weeks, hoping, that it will look good? When people take tanks to Aquarium shows, do you think they set them up in the auditorium for 6 months?

I guess I would like to hear your rationale scientifically 'why', you can't add live rock to a tank, add bacteria, and not have a functioning reef? PS - the adage 'nothing good happens quickly in this hobby' is not an allowed response. PS - I'm not trying to be overly critical, only asking for evidence. PPS. I'm also in agreement with you that adding unnecessary bacteria, elements, etc is overdone in this hobby, BUT - when needed these products work quite well (the products you said don't work above)

I am actually quite interested on this topic as well. People seem to be quite justifiably going to great lengths to keep tank their reefs as habitable as possible for corals and fish. Personally, i like to be data-driven and/or results-driven and absolutely believe in - "The right tools for the right job". - biological, chemicals or mechanical

Case in point: I just bought a Power Jig-Saw and Dual Temperature Heat Gun for purposes of reefing, that I haven't told the wifey yet... shhhh.

 

[MnFish1]

I'm guessing it was sarcasm.

Not sure if you meant my post (it was not) or the other posters lol - but I do not think it was sarcasm. Time will tell. There are lots of people who do not believe in medications, etc prophylactically, let alone bacteria, etc.

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

I have no evidence i am not a scientist sorry. I am only a consumer. The same results are achieved without these products. Amino acids and fatty acids and carbohydrates and all these diffrent things. Lol. Theyre.corals... lol
If you set a tank up with complete live rock and live sand and sw you mix. Your cycle will be from the die off from the lr and will be very fast. Lol
I am not a scientist. I am a hobbyist.
Believe what you will or want...
D

 

[MnFish1]

I have no evidence i am not a scientist sorry. I am only a consumer. The same results are achieved without these products. Amino acids and fatty acids and carbohydrates and all these diffrent things. Lol. Theyre.corals... lol
If you set a tank up with complete live rock and live sand and sw you mix. Your cycle will be from the die off from the lr and will be very fast. Lol
I am not a scientist. I am a hobbyist.
Believe what you will or want...
D

Sorry - I seem to have hit a raw nerve. I didn't mean that you needed 'scientific evidence' or that you needed to write a dissertation. I only meant your experience that they make no difference.

To many people there is a huge difference between cycling a tank in 6-8 weeks (which I'm sure you've seen people do), as compared to quickly setting up a tank, adding live rock, and fish in several days. I was only trying to make the point that vibrant and fritz turbo 'work' and 'help' and often help 'dramatically'. Hundreds of posts here suggest that you are incorrect in making the blanket statements - so I was only wondering what experience you had that led you to believe what you wrote so adamantly?

To bring this back to the topic - many people do believe TTM is barbaric. Others swear by it. There is probably no absolute right or wrong, but its interesting to hear 'why' people think the way they do

 

[kenchilada]

Wow this thread was garbage from post #1

 

[monkeyCmonkeyDo]

You can cycle a tank in that amount of time without the products. That is my point. If it helps people kool no nerve hit. I see it as wasted money.
D

 

[Gogol_frag]

I have no evidence i am not a scientist sorry. I am only a consumer. The same results are achieved without these products. Amino acids and fatty acids and carbohydrates and all these diffrent things. Lol. Theyre.corals... lol
If you set a tank up with complete live rock and live sand and sw you mix. Your cycle will be from the die off from the lr and will be very fast. Lol
I am not a scientist. I am a hobbyist.
Believe what you will or want...
D

That's correct monkeyCmonkeyDo. I agree that we do sometimes overdo things a little bit.

However, what we (all of us in this forum) are attempting is extremely unnatural - viz: Having a slice of Tropical Reef in the middle of LivingRoom/Kitchen/Garages etc.

Nature is an ancient and powerful force with billions of years of experience in "restoring balance". Our reefs are imbalances or aberrations. So, you have an old and powerful adversary who is always trying to correct that.

The tools we have in our aresenal in this fight are primarily our collective wisdom, time, advances in science and technology and cash capital. Each of those tools have their time and place IMO.

 

[arking_mark]

I have no evidence i am not a scientist sorry. I am only a consumer. The same results are achieved without these products. Amino acids and fatty acids and carbohydrates and all these diffrent things. Lol. Theyre.corals... lol
If you set a tank up with complete live rock and live sand and sw you mix. Your cycle will be from the die off from the lr and will be very fast. Lol
I am not a scientist. I am a hobbyist.
Believe what you will or want...
D

I've been in the hobby for over 20 years. What we can keep today is not what we were able to keep 20 years ago. Things that were expert only back then are now beginner items. The hobby has changed as knowledge and science have developed. Clearly, a key factor is water quality and nutrition. If you have proper diversity and are providing for your inhabitant's nutritional needs, you will be successful. All these products are potential tools.

Using your example of Amino Acids to provide coral nutrition. If you have a heavy-in / heavy-out system or a good supply of Ammonia/Nitrate/Bacteria your corals probably don't really need Amino Acids. However, if you are running a ULN system then this alternate nutrition source can be the right tool.

 

[MnFish1]

You can cycle a tank in that amount of time without the products. That is my point. If it helps people kool no nerve hit. I see it as wasted money.
D

Can you give me an example - of how you could take 'dead rock', add coral and fish, and have it be safe in 1-2 days? If you have a tank that has had a big algae issue - lets say after a die off (which is common - due to nutrients), how do you get rid of it as quickly as vibrant? I'm not trying to argue - just want your experience with these things?

 

[Gogol_frag]

I've been in the hobby for over 20 years. What we can keep today is not what we were able to keep 20 years ago. Things that were expert only back then are now beginner items. The hobby has changed as knowledge and science have developed. Clearly, a key factor is water quality and nutrition. If you have proper diversity and are providing for your inhabitant's nutritional needs, you will be successful. All these products are potential tools.

Using your example of Amino Acids to provide coral nutrition. If you have a heavy-in / heavy-out system or a good supply of Ammonia/Nitrate/Bacteria your corals probably don't really need Amino Acids. However, if you are running a ULN system then this alternate nutrition source can be the right tool.

So true!! The community/ecosystem overall has become larger, over the past couple of decades, as more entrepreneurs and consumers have entered this hyper-niche market. Also some fads have changed- the last time that I was around, ReefCentral was all the rage. Now its Reef2Reef

The only thing that hasn't changed over the past decade is "How noisey and irritating air pumps are"!! So dissapointed that no one has taken that bull by its horns.

 

[MnFish1]

So true!! The community/ecosystem overall has become larger, over the past couple of decades, as more entrepreneurs and consumers have entered this hyper-niche market. Also some fads have changed- the last time that I was around, ReefCentral was all the rage. Now its Reef2Reef

The only thing that hasn't changed over the past decade is "How noisey and irritating air pumps are"!! So dissapointed that no one has taken that bull by its horns.

LOL - most people don't use air pumps... BTW - IMHO - there are probably lots of 'snake-oil' products that are just a waste of money. I don't use any coral food, for example, amino acids, etc etc. I used to - but saw no change when I stopped - so I kept 'stopping'

 

[arking_mark]

LOL - most people don't use air pumps... BTW - IMHO - there are probably lots of 'snake-oil' products that are just a waste of money. I don't use any coral food, for example, amino acids, etc etc. I used to - but saw no change when I stopped - so I kept 'stopping'

Again. The right tool for the right job. If your coral is getting good nutrition from fish poop or whatever, then amino acids aren't needed.

 

[Gogol_frag]

LOL - most people don't use air pumps... BTW - IMHO - there are probably lots of 'snake-oil' products that are just a waste of money. I don't use any coral food, for example, amino acids, etc etc. I used to - but saw no change when I stopped - so I kept 'stopping'

Yeah, you are speaking with an eclectic-idiot who grows his own copepods, rotifers and three types of phytos. I would love to denoise that entire system. However as of now, air-pumps are the best that I have been able to find to provide a suitable environment for my tiny reef building blocks. Any ideas are welcome.