PLEASE STOP USING TTM-IT'S BARBARIC

[4FordFamily]

Some individual fish cannot tolerate copper but I agree most of those specimens were likely afflicted with something else, or have other ailments that did them in -- not the copper. I have had some fish that are copper intolerant that were healthy and remained so as soon as copper was removed. Perhaps 1/20 zebrasoma in my experience seem to react poorly to copper, whereas the other 95% are apparently completely unaffected.

Some wrasse do poorly in copper but that's generally because it has not been increased slowly enough for them to adapt. Many wrasse species don't seem to struggle at all. I find most leopards, for instance, to be very comfortable in copper.

 

[cope413]

The known ways of treating ich are: Tank Transfer Method (TTM), Hyposalinity, Copper and Chloroquine Phosphate.

Formalin (Formaldehyde) is also a known effective treatment for Ich that is often not mentioned.

If done properly, it's very effective and easy.

 

[NYAquatic]

Well, what are you defining as stress? The fact that it doesn't like being moved? Appetite changes? histologic changes in the liver? Difficulty swimming? If you're concerned about moving the fish, the least 'stressful' way would be to introduce it directly into the DT, but I hope you're not advocating that.

The known ways of treating ich are: Tank Transfer Method (TTM), Hyposalinity, Copper and Chloroquine Phosphate.

I've used hypo - and aside from the fact that there are known isolates of crypto that are tolerant & can survive hypo, it's difficult to maintain the proper salinity. You are essentially right on the border of what the fish can tolerate. I clearly remember coming down one morning to see a fish almost dead because the salinity was too low. I find it hard to argue that that isn't stressful on the fish.

Now for copper - like all drugs, it is also toxic to fish, it's just much more toxic to the parasites and most fish tolerate a therapeutic level fairly well, but higher levels of copper are known cause liver issues and fish routinely show appetite changes and stop eating. I've also had a fish die from raising the level too quickly. Again, it's pretty clear to me that copper can be stressful on fish, too.

I have never used Chloroquine Phosphate and it's relatively new, so much less is known about it's effects on fish. It is expensive and difficult to get and there is anecdotal evidence that some species (i.e. hippo tangs) don't tolerate it. I'll count death as stressful.

Tank Transfer Method, if done properly involves putting the fish in a tank, waiting 2-3 days, then transferring it to a separate tank, then repeating this again in 2-3 days. You repeat this process 3 times, so it involves 3 extra transfers of the fish. Ideally, you have the temperature and salinity of the successive tanks matched, so there is no shock from the new water. No fish enjoys being caught, but if done right, there is no injury to the fish and they rapidly adjust to their new home. If you are using two 10 gallon tanks, I challenge you to convince me that the fish knows the difference between them.

Buying, moving and quarantining a fish is stressful on it, no matter how you slice it, but I find it hard to argue that tank transfer method is more stressful than any of the other methods we employ. Indeed, if you truly do consider it barbaric, then you should consider our entire hobby barbaric and quit keeping fish altogether.

Edit- I personally use copper, primarily because it treats other things besides ich, but if I were only treating ich I would have no issues with TTM

Definitely some valid points
I agree hypo is also stressful
IMO, copper, measured properly which is not difficult, much less so.

If you're dealing with a 2-3" wrasse, TTM in a 10 gal tank is fine.
No tang should be kept in a 10 gallon tank, or angel, or large wrasse, or multiple fish.
that's where the biggest problem come in

I don't think TTM is practical or reasonable to do with significantly larger tanks (lets say 40+) and smaller tanks are just not suitable to QT med/large fish or multiple fish.

Plus you're doing all that and only dealing with ich.

 

[deedubz]

Let me start by stating that I'm not trying to be combative.. I'm relatively new to the hobby(just under a year) and am trying to comprehend the for ttm logic.

If you're observing the fish after ttm anyway, or you notice brook/velvet/flukes/or a persistent strain of ich, does it not defeat the purpose of transferring when you then treat with copper/cp anyway?

Whenever I've had to catch a fish from qt or dt they sure seemed stressed to me. I'd hate to have to do that to any of my guys(or gals) any more than absolutely necessary..

 

[BoomCorals]

Do we have anything scientific to base the stress level upon? Genuinely trying to understand why TTM is worse?

 

[Shep]

@Humblefish Thoughts on this?

 

[Fishmanz]

I have always felt the exact same way about TTM. I have been in this hobby for 11 years now and never lost fish due to not qt'ing. It's much more stressful on the fish using ttm, imo.

 

[Amoo]

So you feel TTM with tanks appropriately sized for the fish you are using TTM with are fine, but just went on this huge diatribe about how it's barbaric when in reality your main problem with it is people not using appropriately sized tanks?

@NYAquatic am I reading that correctly?

 

[Antics]

I think TTM is also very popular because its a lot harder to mess up than copper. Treating with copper has so many variables that new aquarists can mess up. Replacement levels in water changes, recognizing a stressed fish who is copper sensitive, dealing with reduced hunger or hunger strikes resulting from copper etc. This isn't even considering how difficult it is for a lot of people to use the available test kits to know they're at a therapeutic level.

I don't think TTM is perfect, but its certainly a better route than no or poor quarantine procedure.

 

[Daniel@R2R Verified Admin]

I prefer TTM if given a choice, and IMHO it is less stressful to the fish. I also believe there's a thread around here by @melypr1985 That lays out which protocols are best with specific fish types. With some, copper is preferred, others TTM, and perhaps others hypo. There are variables that should be considered with the specific fish. I don't like demonizing any particular methods that are shown to be effective.

 

[CindyKz]

Do we have anything scientific to base the stress level upon? Genuinely trying to understand why TTM is worse?

I'd be interested in this too. When I started researching the hobby one of the first things I started reading about was quarantine protocols. I found a lot of anecdotal information and opinion, and very little research. With help from another reefer I found a couple articles on TTM that studied efficacy in regards to the parasite's life cycle but I don't think they included information about whether the fish actually lived through the protocol.

I also couldn't find any controlled comparisons between TTM, treatment, and observation with treatment as indicated. That would be sweet.....

 

[4FordFamily]

Anecdotal evidence is all I offer -- I've lost probably 30% more fish in TTM than copper. I've probably run through 3 dozen angels, 3 dozen tangs, a couple dozen wrasse, and 10-20 other fish (idols, gobies, hawkfish, chromis, foxface, etc) through copper.

I'm also not sure how you could prove scientifically that one thing is safer than the other, short of counting losses comparatively but that's still not very scientific as there are lots of variables.

I've tried TTM on around 40 fish total. I like to think since I frequently advise people on the fish disease forum that I somewhat know what I'm doing but that could be a poor assumption. I certainly try to follow instructions!

I used large 40-50 gal Rubbermaid bins and multiple fish.

The thing I want to remind everyone, is that TTM does not treat velvet. Velvet is every bit as common as ich these days. It's also far more dangerous and more demanding of your attention and preventative treatment. TTM only treats ich, and ignores a plethora of other ailments. That's my biggest "beef" with it. That can, and is, scientifically "provable".

Just my .02

 

[Velcro]

You'd rather throw heavy metal at a fish than move it a few times? I don't get it.

 

[4FordFamily]

You'd rather throw heavy metal at a fish than move it a few times? I don't get it.

Heavy metal tends to harm them less than ammonia buildup in cramped quarters. Ammonia is damaging in the short-run, and copper more so in the long-run.

To be fair, many with copper in QT have ammonia issues because those tanks did not cycle. This can be "fixed" with water changes. However, because it's possible to treat with copper in an established or at least cycled QT, it's possible to avoid the barriage of ammonia in this circumstance.

Again, just my .02

 

[CindyKz]

Anecdotal evidence is all I offer -- I've lost probably 30% more fish in TTM than copper. I've probably run through 3 dozen angels, 3 dozen tangs, a couple dozen wrasse, and 10-20 other fish (idols, gobies, hawkfish, chromis, foxface, etc) through copper.

I'm also not sure how you could prove scientifically that one thing is safer than the other, short of counting losses comparatively but that's still not very scientific as there are lots of variables.

Just my .02

Although I think a pretty rigorous study could be designed, I think you're right, it would be extremely difficult to control for all variables. You could look at safety and efficacy of the various methods. To my knowledge no such study has been published (I may have looked in the wrong places). If anyone has or knows of one I hope they will speak up.

I think it's important to remember, and I appreciate that you pointed it out 4FordFamily, is that in the absence of published research all any of us have is anecdotal evidence. At the end of the day there is no "correct", "right" or "wrong" way because none of it is proven. It's helpful when experienced people like you back up your advice with rationale like you did above ("ammonia is damaging in the short term..." and your reminders that TTM doesn't treat velvet) so that people new to the hobby like me know what to focus on.

 

[MnFish1]

At the risk of starting a war, please see thread title.

TTM is, in my not so humble opinion, one of the worst things to hit the hobby in my 20+ years doing it. Why do people love it? In my opinion, it comes down to two things:

1) I call it the **** (online vendor) effect. Back in the day, they invented 14 day guarantees. That shifts the financial burden of QTing from customer to supplier. In short, people don't so much care, or at least don't feel the $ pinch, of QT losses. Trading QT losses for safer display makes economic sense with guarantee. But it's barbaric. We have an obligation to do what we can to assure the survival of the fish we purchase.
2) People love to brag/post about their prowess in the hobby. Hey look, we have this new QT protocol and my fish came through it great. And thus it spreads. People are MUCH MUCH less likely to post-man I"m an idiot. I tried this new method and killed a bunch of fish. Don't make the same mistake I did.

Why do I think TTM is horrible:

1) Fish when shipped, or even moved from store to home, are by definition highly stressed. You're now taking this stressed fish and putting it in a way too small, totally uncycled, often unfiltered tank. It violates every tenet the hobby was built on.
2) Letting a new fish repeatedly go through a tank cycle, and fighting against it with water changes and TT is super stressful on already stressed fish. Sure, some fish survive it, but way too many don't.
3) repeatedly catching and moving new arrivals from tank to tank also highly stressful
4) I understand the biology of TTM and in theory it is very effective in treating ich. Since all parasites have different life cycles, it is ONLY effective against ich, and ignores all other issues. Why focus QT attention on a single problem, when there are lots of potential issues, all of which will be made worse by having super stressed out fish.
5) Ich is the easiest issue to deal with in QT. If you see it, a quick course of cupramine is 100% effective, MUCH MUCH cheaper and easier, and much much much much much less stressful on fish than TTM.

I absolutely 100% do not see any sense in TTM

Better to have a proper QT tank, observe new arrivals and treat as necessary.

Michael

What is TTM? And by this I mean when you make a blanket statement that something is 'bad', is there a protocol set that is TTM or does everyone do it differently? All forms of quarantine are potentially 'toxic'. Does that mean they are 'bad'? Besides your opinion do you have some data behind your statements? Each one of your statements contains subjective words that aren't defended. I guess I agree with your conclusion - but, your arguments:

 

[deedubz]

I cannot test stress with any of my current kits. Not sure if Red Sea, Hannah, or Salifert are offering those any time soon.

I can test for copper though, and haven't lost a fish using it.

 

[deedubz]

What is TTM?

Tank Transfer Method

 

[melypr1985]

If you see it, a quick course of cupramine is 100% effective, MUCH MUCH cheaper and easier, and much much much much much less stressful on fish than TTM.

Cupramine is quite harsh on some types of fish coppersafe can be better in a lot of cases but not all fish will react well to it (some species can't tolerate it at all). I wouldn't say copper is easier when we have tons of people who don't do it correctly every single day and have to repeat the process. I've run TTM many times and always had positive results. My fish never seemed stressed and were all eating very well and out exploring their tank.

Now, if your problem is with the size of the tanks being used for TTM then that could probably be mentioned to people who are thinking about running this type of quarantine process.

 

[Ryan@ShelteredReef Verified Sponsor]

Do we have anything scientific to base the stress level upon? Genuinely trying to understand why TTM is worse?

I've done a few research papers on the affect of commensal cleaning organisms on fish stress and the primary basis for measuring stress was cortisol levels. I'll see if I can locate a few of the studies to clarify how that was measured but from memory, it was cortisol levels in the holding water.