Plumbing dual overflows with herbie

[reelss]

Hi everyone,

I am setting up my first tank with a sump, and based on my research have come up with the following sketch. I just wanted some validation from the experienced members here before I go ahead and order the parts.

Based on this article, I am going with Option 1: Independent Siphon/Emergency in each overflow. My tank has two 1" holes drilled in each overflow box. All pipes, unless otherwise indicated would be 1 ".

1. Each overflow is going to have a siphon drain (S1, S2) and emergency drain (E1. E2).
2. S1 and S2 will have gate valves (A and B)
3. E1 and E2 will not have any valves.
4. C represents the manifold for future equipment hookup.
5. D represents the check valve coming out from the pump (is the positioning correct?)
6. Disregard E.
7. F and G are ball valves. F will allow me to do water changes by connecting a hose to it.
8. The return line will split into two separate returns. R1 and R2 will be 3/4" PVC. Now that I think about it, both of them should also have ball valves to fine tune flow.

Please let me know if this looks good, or needs any adjustments. I would like to go ahead and order the parts soon so I can get this project underway.

Here's the build thread that I started: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/reelsss-120-gallon-reef-build.348057/

 

[Mandelstam]

Looks good!

Only thing I would suggest is using a Y-connection when you split up the return pipe, a T like you've drawn will have most of the water going just one of the pipes (path of least resistance).

 

[reelss]

Looks good!

Only thing I would suggest is using a Y-connection when you split up the return pipe, a T like you've drawn will have most of the water going just one of the pipes (path of least resistance).

Thanks for the suggestion. Does this only happen at the return, or should I try to minimized the 90's on the drains?
Also, is the positioning of the check valve correct?

 

[JacklePappy]

I don't have that exact layout, but what I've found is that, to minimize noise from the return lines, I had to restrict flow to keep the pipes full enough that bubbles and sloshing didn't occur. Since I didn't have any control valves in the drain system, I reduced all drains down to a fairly small diameter pipe, then added 90's and multiple kinks before submerging the drain outlet about 4" into a container that overflows into filter media. My noise issue was compounded by the fact that the tank is viewed from both sides and the drain pipes are mounted right next to the wall of my kid's room.

That said, maybe the check valves help with the noise?

 

[WWIII]

Looks like you've done your research and have a good plan! I plumbed my 200 gallon tank in a similar fashion and love how quiet it is!

 

[Greybeard]

Looks good to me. I wouldn't expect any problems with that design.

I do see a maintenance issue... no unions. I'm hoping you just didn't show them on the drawing If you're not planning to put unions into the system so that you can disassemble it, I would highly suggest you reconsider!

 

[Mandelstam]

Thanks for the suggestion. Does this only happen at the return, or should I try to minimized the 90's on the drains?
Also, is the positioning of the check valve correct?

It happens when you split up a pipe and one goes straight through the Tee (less resistance) and one turns sharply (more resistance). Water will always choose the path of least resistance so flow will be lower on the one where water has to turn 90 degrees. I can't see that you split up your drains so there it doesn't matter. Position of the check valve looks OK to me.

And I second Greybeard, more unions!

 

[Greybeard]

It happens when you split up a pipe and one goes straight through the Tee (less resistance) and one turns sharply (more resistance). Water will always choose the path of least resistance so flow will be lower on the one where water has to turn 90 degrees.

Instead of changing the 'T' to a 'Y', you could move ball valve 'G' up, past the 'T', and install another ball valve on the other leg of the 'T', somewhere along the run to your 2nd return outlet. That way you can control the output of each return independently. What Mandelstam said would be true, but you could offset the natural difference in flow rates by using the valves. Oh, and I might suggest using true union ball valves... kill two birds with one stone

 

[Mark Derail]

Look at coast-to-coast overflow, instead of boxes, see what you like best.
My next DT, I am considering it. Apparently very silent too.

For the return, I would not split into two, just one, and along the top run a pipe resting on the DT, that can have multiple holes. Basically a spray bar.

So just R2 going to the top, then a pipe along the top going to R1. The pipe between R2 & R1 can have multiple holes and act as a spray bar. That bar - don't glue it - friction fit the last joint R2 and the bar, so you can play around with different configs.

You could make multiple bars between R2 & R1 that output water in two streams or a bunch of smaller ones. Being over or at the water line, you won't siphon from the DT to the sump, or very little. Thus, the check-valve right above the pump, might not be necessary - giving you more head pressure - assuming the check-valve spring reduces pressure / causes some obstruction on the way up.

On the way up, only G is necessary to control pressure going to DT.

As for the spray bar, and the last joint not being glued in R1, you can also play with it being vertical or horizontal. If vertical, direct the flow to help circulation at the very low point of the tank. Just make sure there's a 1/8" hole just below the water line, so when a siphon occurs (power loss) water from the DT won't drain too much through the return line into the sump. Check-valves are leaky over time.

Lastly, consider if you want holes in the DT for the return, instead of going over.

 

[reelss]

Look at coast-to-coast overflow, instead of boxes, see what you like best.
My next DT, I am considering it. Apparently very silent too.

For the return, I would not split into two, just one, and along the top run a pipe resting on the DT, that can have multiple holes. Basically a spray bar.

So just R2 going to the top, then a pipe along the top going to R1. The pipe between R2 & R1 can have multiple holes and act as a spray bar. That bar - don't glue it - friction fit the last joint R2 and the bar, so you can play around with different configs.

You could make multiple bars between R2 & R1 that output water in two streams or a bunch of smaller ones. Being over or at the water line, you won't siphon from the DT to the sump, or very little. Thus, the check-valve right above the pump, might not be necessary - giving you more head pressure - assuming the check-valve spring reduces pressure / causes some obstruction on the way up.

On the way up, only G is necessary to control pressure going to DT.

As for the spray bar, and the last joint not being glued in R1, you can also play with it being vertical or horizontal. If vertical, direct the flow to help circulation at the very low point of the tank. Just make sure there's a 1/8" hole just below the water line, so when a siphon occurs (power loss) water from the DT won't drain too much through the return line into the sump. Check-valves are leaky over time.

Lastly, consider if you want holes in the DT for the return, instead of going over.

While doing my research, I found this video:
I believe this is w hat you are describing for the return.
Also, are there any advantages to setting up the overflows like in the video? I can't tell if this is a variation of the herbie, or a different way altogether.

 

[Mandelstam]

While doing my research, I found this video:

I believe this is w hat you are describing for the return.
Also, are there any advantages to setting up the overflows like in the video? I can't tell if this is a variation of the herbie, or a different way altogether.

Isn't that exactly the kind of overflow you are planning? A dual herbie? I know some people don't like to run water in their open channel/emergency drain during normal operation but I think it's how it's usually done.

 

[reelss]

Isn't that exactly the kind of overflow you are planning? A dual herbie? I know some people don't like to run water in their open channel/emergency drain during normal operation but I think it's how it's usually done.

I thought herbie had vertical standing pipes without the curved portion on top. Is the video depicting a herbie as well? sorry, I am no plumbing expert.

 

[Mandelstam]

I thought herbie had vertical standing pipes without the curved portion on top. Is the video depicting a herbie as well? sorry, I am no plumbing expert.

Herbie or Beananimal can be run with just straight pipes, it's not what defines them. For Herbie it is one tuned full siphon + an open channel/emergency drain which runs a small amount of water, a Beananimal is basically a Herbie but with an added dry emergency drain which only runs water if the other two is blocked.

 

[reelss]

Herbie or Beananimal can be run with just straight pipes, it's not what defines them. For Herbie it is one tuned full siphon + an open channel/emergency drain which runs a small amount of water, a Beananimal is basically a Herbie but with an added dry emergency drain which only runs water if the other two is blocked.

So if I plumb the way video suggests, do I still need an emergency? Or the redundancy with the two overflows solve that problem?
Basically, would you feel comfortable with what the video is suggesting?

 

[Mandelstam]

So if I plumb the way video suggests, do I still need an emergency? Or the redundancy with the two overflows solve that problem?
Basically, would you feel comfortable with what the video is suggesting?

Yes I would feel pretty safe running it like in the video. I think most people feel pretty safe with just a single Herbie. Shielding the pipes from snails and debris adds another level of security.

 

[JacklePappy]

After watching the video and thinking about all this, I realize I have NO emergency overflow. My tank was designed with over sized return lines, it seems, to remove the need for emergency overflow, but at the cost of excessive noise. Thank you, everyone for the information.

 

[Mark Derail]

A coast-to-coast has no box, but a tube with weir cuts, and that tube connects to the output hole(s). Tube runs horizontal.
One end usually has a 90 degree elbow going up for the emergency water height.

The point is, you don't have a box going from bottom to top, using up real-estate space. It looks like a floating tube that water goes into. Nothing can ever block the entire weir, and it does surface skimming.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/coast-to-coast-weir-questions.296590/

I don't like the huge space the overflow boxes use, and one more thing to clean, that is annoying to get into.

 

[Mandelstam]

A coast-to-coast has no box, but a tube with weir cuts, and that tube connects to the output hole(s). Tube runs horizontal.
One end usually has a 90 degree elbow going up for the emergency water height.

The point is, you don't have a box going from bottom to top, using up real-estate space. It looks like a floating tube that water goes into. Nothing can ever block the entire weir, and it does surface skimming.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/coast-to-coast-weir-questions.296590/

I don't like the huge space the overflow boxes use, and one more thing to clean, that is annoying to get into.

A coast to coast overflow simply means that you have skimming from one end to another on one side of the tank. Most of them that I've seen use boxes, internal or external.

Also, in the thread you linked the design with pvc-pipes gets pretty much blasted and not recommended, so I don't really understand, are you for or against having a slitted pvc pipe as an overflow instead of a box? If you are for it, how do you argue against the critique brought up in the thread?

Rakie:
"That is a bad design dude. Everyone keeps telling you, but you like it anyways for some reason (i'm guessing cost).
Well it doesn't work. It doesn't skim the surface water, you can tell just by looking at it. It's sucking down water from BELOW the surface (AKA, doing nothing useful).

Get a real one. Or modify that so heavily that it looks completely different -- because what you want doesn't work."

 

[Mark Derail]

Ya @Mandelstam I'm not suggesting anything in particular - still analyzing what is best / better looking.

I like the acrylic box design that goes end-to-end (but not top to bottom), not the pvc pipe thing where you cut slits for a weir. I'm sure both can work well, I'm looking for aesthetics and real estate space.

There's also a curved design out there that looks nice.

Instead of two separate boxes, each having two or three pipes (third being a backup), a single wider box.

So you skim very wide, and you only need a total of 3 holes for the sump, so full safety.

 

[Mandelstam]

Ya @Mandelstam I'm not suggesting anything in particular - still analyzing what is best / better looking.

I like the acrylic box design that goes end-to-end (but not top to bottom), not the pvc pipe thing where you cut slits for a weir. I'm sure both can work well, I'm looking for aesthetics and real estate space.

There's also a curved design out there that looks nice.

Instead of two separate boxes, each having two or three pipes (third being a backup), a single wider box.

So you skim very wide, and you only need a total of 3 holes for the sump, so full safety.

Ok!
My future build which will be a custom made tank, will have a coast to coast overflow with no internal box, only external. The back glass will basically be lower than the other three sides so the water will flow over the glass edge and into the overflow box.