Plumbing Help!!..turn an amateur into a pro

mpjmeyer · Dec 4, 2016

Very 1st time having a saltwater tank and am about ready to start plumbing. Original idea was to have an hob overflow and a U return pipe. The sunp is a Lifereef which also consists of a 10 gallon refugium and came with flex tubing for the overflow and return. So I have MANY questions!! Also..feel free to steal my pics and draw plumbing plans for me..

I sold the HOB Lifereef overflow and purchased the Synergy Shadow overflow along with the diamond drill bit. My Lifereef only has 1 pipe for the incoming water and the Synergy has 3 water exits.

I suppose the other 2 can just hang over the sump?

Since I am drilling the tank for the overflow, should I also go ahead and drill for returns? If so, should I have 2 returns for flow?

Should I hard plumb the tank instead of using the flex? I can use the joists under the tank to use clamps To support the pipes if so.

Unions? Where and how many??

Ball valves? Where would they go

Sorry for the many questions but you are the experts and I'm at the bottom of the ladder trying to take the next step up.

Here are photos of what I have going on..(i have the opening where tank will be taped off because taper and mudder is finishing basement. Also, there is dust on tank which will all be cleaned off using only water).

The input water pipe is located in rear corner behind protein skimmer

This is pretty sloppy but here is what I'm thinking for the tank. I used paint on my phone..

Blue: possible return locations if drilling. If not drilling, the U return would be next to light mount on left
Red: overflow in center
Yellow: mounts for Radion XR15's
Green: MP40 powerhead

The sides with paint will be the 2 sides in the fish room and will be painted black after drilling. I was going to use an mp10 powerhead but could I cancel that if I were to put a return there? (Blue dot furthest to left)

Any help is appreciated.

mpjmeyer · Dec 4, 2016

Also outside if plumbing, I will be using an apex. Should I let the tank cycle before hooking that up so I can properly calibrate the probes?

Reefercorey · Dec 4, 2016

Im no real expert either but I can give you a start... drilling for return isn't necessary but may look better and give slightly better flow than plumbing the line uo and around the rim of the tank. Unions should be installed a few inches below the overflow and maybe just above the sump for easy cleaning and maintenance. I wouldn't use ball valves on the open channel drain line. Use a gate galve for better flow control. From what I understand ball valves are better for either on or off and not easily adjustable other than that. Hopefully I helped a little.

mpjmeyer · Dec 4, 2016

That helped a ton!! Thank you @Reefercorey

Reefercorey · Dec 4, 2016

On page 9 (i think) of the shadow overflow thread @mixer911 posted some pictures of how its set up and ways you can plumb the box with unions. Really helped me get a visual idea of how it works

mixer911 · Dec 4, 2016

Definitely drill returns if you are gonna be drilling the overflow anyway. In the long run you will be much happier. This over the back returns will work, but they are more for temporary setups IMHO. You should only need 1 return anyway on that tank. 1 3/4" return would be plenty. Use a Gate valve to dial in the overflow. Much more precise and will not lock up on you over time.

mpjmeyer · Dec 4, 2016

Awesome!! Any suggestions on which site to get the drill bit and return plumbing?

Reefercorey · Dec 4, 2016

You can get drill bits on the Synergy reef site. Speaking of which, I need to order one of those soon.

Plumbing parts I got from BRS. They have a bunch of different colored pvc. I got an amethyst colored trigger system sump so I got purple pvc to match that. Looks pretty cool so far

mpjmeyer · Dec 5, 2016

Should I use a gate valve on all 3 drains or just the main drain of the Shadow? Also what diameter plumbing will I need for the Shadow?

Reefercorey · Dec 5, 2016

Oops. I realized in a previous comment i said i would use a gate valve instead of ball valve on the open channel. I meant to say use a gate valve on the full siphon. I think you only need a valve on the main drain in order to tune it to the proper flow but maybe someone else knows better on that question

mpjmeyer · Dec 5, 2016

Thanks for all the advise. I ordered a bit of plumbing today from BRS including a diamond hole saw, return fittings and gate valves. Will start to piece this build together soon.

nervousmonkey · Dec 5, 2016

You don't need gate valves on anything but the main siphon line on the overflow, the rest are wide open as you're not draining more than 25% of the water through open channel. If you are, you'll notice a loud noise of splashing water in which case you turn up your siphon to take more water. The rule is that more than 25% water going through a drain valve causes water/air interaction and loud splashing. Less than that and the water just clings to the inside of the pipe, making it silent. So no gate valves necessary on pipes other than the main. You'll just have a gate valve all the way open all the time if you put one on the other two lines.
I put unions everywhere I am joining pipes together or flex or silicone, anything that has a joint has a union, so I can change things out more easily later.
Definitely drill for returns. as @mixer911 said, you can do one or two, really doesn't make a difference. Two makes the plumbing a bit more work, but not that much. I'd just go with one as that will suffice. Just make sure you have really good flow all over the tank. You could add an eductor to the return line; they increase flow throughout the tank by enormous amounts. I use eductors and love them. They are so strong that I had to use a powerhead pointed at the eductor outflow to keep it from pushing the sand back from the front of the tank. They work by taking your return flow and then sucking in tank water, and pushing that through along with return water, so you get much more bang for your buck (or $10), somewhere along the lines of 4X volume of water pushed.

The rest looks good man. You'll love that Synergy overflow, it is amazing. Once you get it tuned in, your skimmer will be louder. Take time adjusting it as well, and it doesn't need much of a turn on the gate valve to change the flow dynamics. Oh, one more thing, don't extend your drains more than 1" below the surface, as the system won't work then, too much water pressure to push against and the siphon won't work, nor the open channel, and you definitely don't want the emergency under the water line for two reasons: you want to hear when your emergency has had to kick in and you want to make sure that the siphon function of the emergency actually works.
Good luck buddy!

mpjmeyer · Dec 5, 2016

Thank you so much for that advise. Yes. I did only get 1 gate valve for the main drain line...didn't mean to say "gate valves".

nervousmonkey said:
Oh, one more thing, don't extend your drains more than 1" below the surface, as the system won't work then, too much water pressure to push against and the siphon won't work, nor the open channel, and you definitely don't want the emergency under the water line for two reasons: you want to hear when your emergency has had to kick in and you want to make sure that the siphon function of the emergency actually works.

I don't understand this sentence. Are you speaking of the main drain or the other 2 back up drains? Sorry, very new to plumbing a tank and trying to get as much advise as I can. Keep the drain pipes in the overflow at least 1" lower than the water in the display tank?

nervousmonkey · Dec 5, 2016

Oh, I am sorry for the confusion. No, keep the drain pipes *no more* than 1" under the water surface line in the sump, then purposefully allow the emergency drain (which should always run dry) above the water line so you can hear if it is running, so you can fix whatever problem there is. The overflow box will keep the same water level no matter what, so I am talking down into the sump.

mpjmeyer · Dec 5, 2016

Oh...ok. My Lifereef sump came with a pvc pipe glued to the back corner which is to connect the drain line from the overflow. So I will hard plumb the main drain from the overflow to that pvc pipe with the gate valve installed in between. Then the 2nd drain will be wide open and drop down into the sump about the same distance as the main drain...and the emergency drain should be kept above the water level in the sump so I can see if water is coming down it which would be the sign there is a problem...also be wide open. Did I get that corrrect?

nervousmonkey · Dec 5, 2016

Yep! Perfectly. Only thing I would add is that using 45 degree angles on plumbing seems to be better than 90's. It makes the siphon start more easily, and on the returns, keeps the head pressure down so you get more water volume in. But not necessary. Use what you have; I use 90's out of the return pump, and use 45's when I can, but plumbing two 45's instead of one 90 makes it more difficult.
Either way, you have it perfect!!!

mpjmeyer · Dec 5, 2016

LOL. I literally was going to ask about angles next. I assume for better flow, 45's would be better than 90's. So if possible, use 45's as much as I can unless a 90 is absolutely the only way. Got it. Thank you for all your advise!!

nervousmonkey · Dec 5, 2016

Anytime bud!

john.m.cole3 · Dec 12, 2016

Did you get it all drilled? I have the same overflow and use 1 return line. I made a mistake and drilled my return line to close to the corner joint and it's hard to clean the glass in that area. I was chiming in in hopes that you don't make the same mistake as me. Good Luck!