Plumbing - Need to Pump uphill Both Ways

[static416]

I'm in the process of planning out a new tank, but there's a problem with the plumbing.

I have my 40gal refugium in my storage room. The current tank connects to this easily because there is just drywall inbetween, but not for the new tank.

New tank arrangement will look like this:

There is a concrete wall and floor between the two, and the only way to connect them is via the ceiling. This isn't great, because it will require pumping in both directions.

Like this:

I can sync the flow between the two pumps by using an inverted float valve in the "refugium return sump" to automatically throttle the return to the tank to match the incoming flow to the refugium.

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Question is, is there a better way? I'd rather rely on gravity for the return to the display for fail-safe reasons, but I can't see how to do that if I need to go over the wall.

Drilling the wall is not an option, the real situation is much more complex than this simplified diagram.

 

[T-J]

Is there a reason you can't put the refugium/sump underneath the DT? That would solve many problems here.

 

[static416]

You mean, put the entire refugium under the DT?

No, there is no space for it anywhere else, and the 40gal refugium already exists in it's current location. It's actually more than a refugium, with some small predators in it too.

So either way, I have to run the waterlines over the wall in both directions.

 

[T-J]

You mean, put the entire refugium under the DT?

No, there is no space for it anywhere else, and the 40gal refugium already exists in it's current location. It's actually more than a refugium, with some small predators in it too.

So either way, I have to run the waterlines over the wall in both directions.

So, what's going under the new DT?
Could you put a sump under there and move some of your refugium into the sump and still keep your 40g going as a separate system?
I'm jus trying to avoid your "over the wall" setup. For me, it spells disaster. Even with your float valve, I feel there's too much possibility of flooding/running dry.

 

[static416]

It'll likely be the Waterbox 290.

Under the new DT is the sump that will come with it, along with all of the related equipment (skimmer, reefmat 1200, media reactor, dosing pumps, dosing reserviors, etc).

 

[static416]

I'm jus trying to avoid your "over the wall" setup. For me, it spells disaster. Even with your float valve, I feel there's too much possibility of flooding/running dry.

Agree here. I'm going to have to work through a number of failure scenarios and ensure that I have multiple fail-safes.

I'm not excited about it. But can't think of another option that doesn't involve shutting down the refugium and re-homing the fish, or replacing my couch with another tank.

 

[static416]

Alternatively, I could run around the perimeter of the house, the long way. But that would be crazy complicated. Dozens of studs to drill, and finished walls to open up. Likely not a good option either.

 

[Cajun86]

why not just drill thru concrete wall?

 

[static416]

why not just drill thru concrete wall?

I would, but there is also a hallway in between.

So it would just come out of the wall and into a hallway, and then I'd have to go up anyways.

If I was open to spending more money, I'd just rip out the hardwood floor (which is old), trench the concrete and reinstall a new floor. But that's an extra $15k I don't really want to spend right now.

 

[Gill the 3rd]

Im not quite following how the float valve works to throttle the return. IMO this is a disaster waiting to happen. You basically have 2 pumps in series and no matter how much you adjust them you will never be able to get them at the exact same flow rate. Even if you did get them set up perfectly, one will clog faster than the other and the flow will no longer match.

 

[ReefDreamz]

How high does the turnover rate need to be for a refugium? What if you did this with dosing pumps and RO tubing like a auto water change system but exchanging between the fuge and the main tanks sump. Then you don't need a seperate refugium sump.

 

[Lbrdsoxfan]

I'd move the refugium next to the display before attempting any of that. It screams flooding issues if anything fails.

 

[static416]

Im not quite following how the float valve works to throttle the return. IMO this is a disaster waiting to happen. You basically have 2 pumps in series and no matter how much you adjust them you will never be able to get them at the exact same flow rate.

The pumps don't need to exactly match, they just need to be somewhat close.

I'd install the float value upside-down in the refugium sump, after the return pump. So that as the water raised, the valve would start to open, and then as the water dropped, the valve would start to close.

As long as the two pumps are the same, and the return is configured to be slightly stronger, the system should reach equilibrium with the float value throttling the return pump so there was always a fixed amount of water in the return sump.

As a fail-safe, I'd add high and low water sensors connected to hydros to shutoff the pumps in extreme failure cases.

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Worst case would be:
- Refugium input pump fails, so no water goes to the refugium.
- ALSO float valve sticks open
- ALSO low-water sensor in refugium sump fails to turn off return pump
- ALSO high-water sensor in refugium sump fails to turn off return pump

In this case, we need 4 simultaneous failures. And then the pump would fully drain the return sump into the primary display sump. But it's only about 4 gallons of water, and the display sump can handle that surge.

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In the opposite scenario:
- Refugium return pump fails
- Refugium input pump continues to add water to refugium
- ALSO high-water sensor in refugium sump fails to turn off input pump
- ALSO low-water sensor in display sump fails to turn off input pump

In this case, we need 3 simultaneous failures. Then refugium input pump could potentially drain the display sump into the refugium and it would overflow. This isn't horrible in this case, because that refugium is in the storage room with a concrete floor and a drain, it would just run the display sump dry and set off all my alarms.

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Generally, as long as the float valve can reach equilibrium, I think the safeties will work.

 

[static416]

Biggest detail is whether or not the float valve can be damped in a way that doesn't cause surging in the system.

 

[static416]

For the record, I agree with everyone that this is not ideal, and sounds like a recipe for a flood.

But I don't really have other options unless I remove the refugium entirely or not upgrade. So I'm trying to find a way that ideally has a lot of safety features (even if that costs more).

If that fails, I guess the refugium goes away.

 

[T-J]

What do you have in the refugium that you couldn't move into a section of the sump of the new setup?
You mentioned fish. Are they not compatible with what you're doing in the new tank?

Also, you could have an issue with only ONE item failing: Your float valve. Since you won't know if it's fully open or closed at any given moment, your water levels could be creeping on you.
And as far as alarms go, they only help if you're home and are ready to fix the issue immediately. Not much you can do when you're not home. Even if the pumps shut off, you could have a siphon issue (unless you have some siphon breaks).

I just don't see a reasonable (safe) way to make it work the way you want to. Sorry.

 

[gbru316]

But that's an extra $15k I don't really want to spend right now.

This is a most likely scenario regardless. The difference being in one instance it's planned and budgeted and the other instance you'll learn of it's necessity either at 2 am or when you're out of town and you've just burned a chunk of your emergency fund on a major appliance because homeownership is the very definition of "when it rains it pours."


What do you gain by connecting everything together that can't be accomplished by other means? If it's nutrient reduction, an ATS takes up much less space than a refigium. If it's 'fuge fauna, no reason you couldn't transfer sand between the 2 tanks periodically. If it's because you use the refugium as a display, then just keep them separate and add a sump to the 'fuge. Or KISS and use a HOB filter.

 

[theMeat]

You can’t have two pumps that work off overflows in two different locations that sync. It will be nothing but a headache from the get go. Come up with a different plan.
Drilling through the cement seems a logical path forward

 

[Cajun86]

I would, but there is also a hallway in between.

So it would just come out of the wall and into a hallway, and then I'd have to go up anyways.

If I was open to spending more money, I'd just rip out the hardwood floor (which is old), trench the concrete and reinstall a new floor. But that's an extra $15k I don't really want to spend right now.

Gotcha. Yea that would be a Spendy plumbing job for shure

 

[Stevorino]

All I can say is that I did something similar ~5 years ago and it was a disaster.

... Right when I'd think it was all dialed in, it'd go and **** up when I wasn't looking. Dealing with the never-ending imbalance slowly drained my love for the hobby. I suppose I did learn that there is not a good answer for everything lol

With your constraints, I'd just put the fuge under the display and call it a day.