PO4 - is .5ppm a problem?

[Punchanello]

Hi everyone,

I have a young mixed reef and have had my fair share of parameter swings, algae blooms and mess-ups. One think I always had though is very low or undetectable nitrates and phosphates. All of the sudden my nitrates have jumped up to 10ppm (which I think is ok for my livestock and planned approach) but my phosphates are at .5ppm. This seems really high judging by other peoples parameters.

My corals generally look unhappy. My Acans are retracted and not puffy, my limited number of SPS are losing colour and turning beige or brown.

I had a light malfunction (ATI Led Hybrid Powermodule) which is being fixed (been out nearly a month) and I have had to replace it with some cheap LEDs in the meantime. I assumed this was the problem with my corals, but could it be my phosphates?

grateful for your thoughts.

I have a 700 litre system. Running chaeto in a refugium under grow lights and Nyos 160 skimmer.

 

[ndrwater]

I would say no.. with where you are with your Po4, is is slightly elevated, but nothing to get awfully excited about.
I would think the lighting has much more to do with the corals Browning.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

your less powerful lights are likely not driving algae growth which has caused n and p to rise.

anyways.. .5 phos seems really high to me. no?? I mean people freaked out when Sanjay said he had 50ppm nitrates and .4 phos but that is an old old tank.

if I had that high of phos in a newer tank I would slowly add lanthium chloride to ramp it down.

But, I am sure there are others on here with more experience. I hope it settles out.

 

[Punchanello]

your less powerful lights are likely not driving algae growth which has caused n and p to rise.

anyways.. .5 phos seems really high to me. no?? I mean people freaked out when Sanjay said he had 50ppm nitrates and .4 phos but that is an old old tank.

if I had that high of phos in a newer tank I would slowly add lanthium chloride to ramp it down.

But, I am sure there are others on here with more experience. I hope it settles out.

I, perhaps mistakenly, thought that that increases in NO3 and PO4 were relative to each other. I mean, they are symptoms of the same thing. Too much in, not enough out.

But my NO3 is within a reasonable range but my PO4 seems really high. Maybe others can help.

 

[Big E]

P04 higher than N03 is not a recipe for long term success, especially for Sps. .50 is going to severely reduce growth................you don't see good color because the corals aren't growing. Growth= color.

N03 at 10ppm is okay.

Get your P04 down to .10 or below..........you will see a big spike in growth and health.

The easiest way is to use GFO, go slow. Run it for about 6-8 hours and try not to knock the levels down too fast.
For example drop to .30 to .15, ect. over the course of about 5-6 days. Use about half the recommended amount.

The lights are probably a factor as well............corals need time to adjust to spectrum changes and to a lesser degree par. It will take time, but getting your nutrient levels in check and getting your lights back will get your system back on track. Be patient..........the recovery time for corals to thrive again is going to be 2-3 months.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

P04 higher than N03 is not a recipe for long term success, especially for Sps. .50 is going to severely reduce growth................you don't see good color because the corals aren't growing. Growth= color.

N03 at 10ppm is okay.

Get your P04 down to .10 or below..........you will see a big spike in growth and health.

This is a generalization and is true in some tanks, but it's not a universal truth. This article by Richard Ross discusses phosphates at length. It's a long read, but it's a good one. To summarize in a few sentences, some reef tanks are run very successfully with phosphates above 1 ppm. Additional, some nutrient-rich wild reefs have higher phosphate levels than average. When a naturally low nutrient reef is exposed to these slightly elevated levels of phosphates, everything dies, despite other reefs being very healthy at those levels.

There's clearly more going on with phosphates and reefs than we understand. If the OP is having problems with nuisance algae growth or with poor coral growth, then it might make sense to lower phosphates. All the OP has said, however, is the phosphates are higher than the benchmark that everyone in the hobby seems to think is ideal. I would not lower phosphates for this reason alone.

 

[Big E]

This is a generalization and is true in some tanks, but it's not a universal truth. This article by Richard Ross discusses phosphates at length. It's a long read, but it's a good one. To summarize in a few sentences, some reef tanks are run very successfully with phosphates above 1 ppm. Additional, some nutrient-rich wild reefs have higher phosphate levels than average. When a naturally low nutrient reef is exposed to these slightly elevated levels of phosphates, everything dies, despite other reefs being very healthy at those levels.

There's clearly more going on with phosphates and reefs than we understand. If the OP is having problems with nuisance algae growth or with poor coral growth, then it might make sense to lower phosphates. All the OP has said, however, is the phosphates are higher than the benchmark that everyone in the hobby seems to think is ideal. I would not lower phosphates for this reason alone.

I totally disagree...........I lived all those different nutrient levels in real time. I've had Po4 in the high levels .20-.50+ Everyone always brings up the SAME one or two tanks................. Rich's tank is the poster child.

Go look at all the Tank of the Month systems they all are similar. Hundreds of success stories over two decades also prove this out, especially with Sps dominant systems. Most of these high level nutrient systems are tanks that didn't start that way. Go and try to grow 1" frags into colonies with the nutrient levels like the OP has.

I'll put my tank up against Rich's or anyone else that keep acropora in regards to growth and color. My 29 years and 18 with dominant Sps systems prove otherwise to me.

What's important is throughput the test numbers are what's left over and if you can keep a heavy nutrient flow with lower numbers you're going to have success.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

I totally disagree

Then you completely misunderstood what I was saying, because I said that you were right in my post. I also said that other people who have had contradictory experiences are right too, because this isn't an either/or thing. Some people are really successful with high phosphates, and some are successful with low phosphates.

If all the corals are unhappy in the OP's tank, I don't think phosphate is the problem. Not when nutrients went from almost undetectable to their current levels "all of a sudden." This is not normal in stable tanks, and something must have caused this to happen. This seems much more likely to be irritating the corals than slightly elevated phosphates.

 

[Flippers4pups]

It's of my personal experience that higher N03 than P04 has always been acceptable in my systems. I'm currently experiencing a P04 limiting event and have been dosing phosphate to bring it up to trace. N03 has been hovering around 40+. Corals were paling. Things have turned around and they are regaining color.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/sps-high-nutrients-myth.283442/#post-3449471

Million ways to skin a cat.
Cat is always skinned.

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

I am really not trying to start a debate but there is something to be said for what the majority of reefers are doing to have success with SPS. There are indeed many ways to skin a cat but there is also a generally accepted way to skin a cat that works for most people.

It seems that reefers are always inclined to find an example of something that is similar to what they are doing and claim "see, I told you it would work". High nutrients, not QT things, no skimmer, etc etc etc.

Do I think high phos is a death sentance? no. Do I think that .5 phos is really really high for a tank? yes.

successful SPS tanks with high nutrients are typically OUTLIERS, not the norm.

if my neighbor said "I have 200k miles on my car and never changed the oil, not even once" I wouldn't tell myself, huh, you don't need to change the oil in your car....

 

[Pongo]

Hi everyone,

I have a young mixed reef and have had my fair share of parameter swings, algae blooms and mess-ups. One think I always had though is very low or undetectable nitrates and phosphates. All of the sudden my nitrates have jumped up to 10ppm (which I think is ok for my livestock and planned approach) but my phosphates are at .5ppm. This seems really high judging by other peoples parameters.

My corals generally look unhappy. My Acans are retracted and not puffy, my limited number of SPS are losing colour and turning beige or brown.

I had a light malfunction (ATI Led Hybrid Powermodule) which is being fixed (been out nearly a month) and I have had to replace it with some cheap LEDs in the meantime. I assumed this was the problem with my corals, but could it be my phosphates?

grateful for your thoughts.

I have a 700 litre system. Running chaeto in a refugium under grow lights and Nyos 160 skimmer.

I agree your light problem is probably the reason your corals are unhappy.

But, slowly dropping the PO4 to a lower level is a fine course of action also.
You don't have to chase an exact number or drop it fast.
My own method is to make changes slowly and in small increments.
I am not a fan of GFO, my personal preference is PhosGuard.
I usually shoot for less than 0.1ppm but my last reading was 0.17ppm and my corals all look as happy as when it was 0.02ppm.

 

[Punchanello]

Thanks for the discussion. Does anyone have any views on how I might have such high phosphates while my nitrates remain at a reasonable level?

I watched the BRS TV which presented a few common reasons - foods to tank containing high phosphates, use of nitrate reducing media exporting nitrates and not phosphates, testing error and a couple more unlikely scenarios.

They also suggested that macro algaes, for example, would consume both nitrates and phosphates at comparative ratios.

I have only ever used macro algae and a skimmer, no specific nitrate removing media or methods. Food could be a reason although I only use good quality commercial marine foods and some fresh blended shellfish and crustacean every now and then. I think my next most probable culprit is a bad test kit...

 

[BigJohnny]

Hi everyone,

I have a young mixed reef and have had my fair share of parameter swings, algae blooms and mess-ups. One think I always had though is very low or undetectable nitrates and phosphates. All of the sudden my nitrates have jumped up to 10ppm (which I think is ok for my livestock and planned approach) but my phosphates are at .5ppm. This seems really high judging by other peoples parameters.

My corals generally look unhappy. My Acans are retracted and not puffy, my limited number of SPS are losing colour and turning beige or brown.

I had a light malfunction (ATI Led Hybrid Powermodule) which is being fixed (been out nearly a month) and I have had to replace it with some cheap LEDs in the meantime. I assumed this was the problem with my corals, but could it be my phosphates?

grateful for your thoughts.

I have a 700 litre system. Running chaeto in a refugium under grow lights and Nyos 160 skimmer.

I would fix the lighting and then give the corals time to recover before assuming its anything else. Usually unless your nitrate and phosphate are undetectable they will not significantly impact coral health, ime. Even if they are undetectable it may not be an issue if the input is high enough. Plus, since you know the lighting is an issue, the last thing you want to do is change anything else before you figure that out. Stability is the most important and imo changing one thing at a time, slowly, is the safest way to experiment and problem solve in a reef tank.

Fix the lights and then give your tank at least a month before searching elsewhere.

 

[User1]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/sps-high-nutrients-myth.283442/#post-3449471

Million ways to skin a cat.
Cat is always skinned.

P.E.T.A does not approve of this message.

Just kidding - I'm a dog person but someone had to go here

 

[pdxmonkeyboy]

I have been battling phos a little bit but I have been feeding my corals HEAVILY because the tank is fallow right now.

have you checked your DI resin on your RODI unit? you can be getting phosphates from there..

 

[Big E]

Thanks for the discussion. Does anyone have any views on how I might have such high phosphates while my nitrates remain at a reasonable level?

I watched the BRS TV which presented a few common reasons - foods to tank containing high phosphates, use of nitrate reducing media exporting nitrates and not phosphates, testing error and a couple more unlikely scenarios.

"They also suggested that macro algaes, for example, would consume both nitrates and phosphates at comparative ratios."

I have only ever used macro algae and a skimmer, no specific nitrate removing media or methods. Food could be a reason although I only use good quality commercial marine foods and some fresh blended shellfish and crustacean every now and then. I think my next most probable culprit is a bad test kit...

"They also suggested that macro algaes, for example, would consume both nitrates and phosphates at comparative ratios."

The quote above is blatantly false. Each macro algae species has it's own rate of consumption. Most consume more nitrate than phosphate..............on average 65 to 1... so you can fall into a nitrate limiting problem. Once this happens the P04 rises and then it affects the algae filters capacity to grow and in turn also the corals which aren't happy with a skewed ratio. Some people will dose nitrate to keep the algae growing.

Most people use chaeto which is 100-1.

This same scenario can also happen with carbon dosing. Either way, the ratio needs to be fixed as the corals won't thrive and take in nutrients, nor the algae.

In your system the N03 level is ok, so it's easier to knock down the p04. You can use GFO or lanthium, ect. that just targets Po4. Once you drop that down the corals and the algae will respond. It's possible that once you get it balanced out the corals and your algae filter consumption can keep the numbers stable. It's something you'll have to monitor.

A lot of acros won't grow as fast with ratios in the .30 range.......above .50 some will just completely stop. It's not going to kill corals or even colors to some extent but they aren't going to thrive. I focus on the acros because they are the least forgiving. The other corals will do well under the same conditions.

You have a better chance of success if you stay within the range of most successful tanks instead of trying to duplicate the outliers which have either very low levels or extremely high.

These are the ballpark targets I share..........You don't have to chase levels constantly the corals will tell you how to proceed, but it's important to get in a sustainable range so the corals are thriving instead of surviving.

Po4- .02-.10
N03- .5- 10ppm

Ratio range between- 50-200 to 1

You don't have to split hairs, it's possible once your P04 gets down to maybe .15 you'll see a response. Use the GFO to get in the range and then you can take it off line and see how things progress. Your system has to go through a period of balancing out, so it's not going to happen overnight. Think in terms of a few months not weeks.

I'm sure the lights are also a factor but I would still fix your nutrient ratios and levels to create a more robust system.

If you want me to walk you through it, you can pm me.

 

[Punchanello]

Thanks @Big E. That certainly makes a lot more sense now. I had fairly explosive chaeto growth early on but it has slowed a lot. That along with what I understood from the BRS video (I am not ruling out me misquoting) had me confused.

I had a very long cycle when I started the tank and it took a very long time to bring phosphates down. I wonder if the rock might still be releasing phosphates as I don't feel I overfeed or have overstocked. I'm new to this though so I guess it is possible.

In any case, some water changes and maybe some other like GFO is in order. I had hoped to avoid it and rely on macro algae but maybe down the track I can wean off and rely on the chaeto again.

 

[Reefahholic]

Hi everyone,

I have a young mixed reef and have had my fair share of parameter swings, algae blooms and mess-ups. One think I always had though is very low or undetectable nitrates and phosphates. All of the sudden my nitrates have jumped up to 10ppm (which I think is ok for my livestock and planned approach) but my phosphates are at .5ppm. This seems really high judging by other peoples parameters.

My corals generally look unhappy. My Acans are retracted and not puffy, my limited number of SPS are losing colour and turning beige or brown.

I had a light malfunction (ATI Led Hybrid Powermodule) which is being fixed (been out nearly a month) and I have had to replace it with some cheap LEDs in the meantime. I assumed this was the problem with my corals, but could it be my phosphates?

grateful for your thoughts.

I have a 700 litre system. Running chaeto in a refugium under grow lights and Nyos 160 skimmer.

It's definitely not the light. In a new system 0.5 is fairly common and combined with Nitrates at 10+ will brown things out quite a bit. I recently went through the same issues.

Sounds like you started with DRY ROCK like the rest of us.

 

[Reefahholic]

How young is your system. How far in from day one did you notice the jump in PO4 levels?