Poll: Grounding Probe Placement

[recess62]

Question. I keep a grounding probe in the sump but none in the DT. However I use MP 40s and the only wires in the DT are a temp probe and Par probe. It there any risk of a significant voltage leak from the probes and should I have a grounding g probe in the DT? I am a safety nut

 

[Vincent100]

I have mine in the sump
I ordered it from the US by mistake ( I'm UK
They messed up my postage and I had to pay more money to get it released from the post office ....but the company was kind enough to send me another for free
Does anyone know the make and if so are they any good
The spare is going in the garage frag tank

 

[BenitaSolo]

Wait, do i need a grounding probe if I'm wired directly to a GFCI breaker?

 

[bubblemytip]

I use a grounded Schego titanium heater in the sump as my grounding probe.

 

[Humblefish]

I put one in the sump, one in the tank. Both connected to a GFCI. Double protection.

 

[Sleepydoc]

One ground probe protects any number of circuits.

That said, I used two, one in my display and one in the sump since they are on different floors and in an emergency, there may be no electrical contact between the two.

I put one in the sump, one in the tank. Both connected to a GFCI. Double protection.

I think you are risking titanium toxicity! ;Smuggrin

 

[P-Dub]

Question. I keep a grounding probe in the sump but none in the DT. However I use MP 40s and the only wires in the DT are a temp probe and Par probe. It there any risk of a significant voltage leak from the probes and should I have a grounding g probe in the DT? I am a safety nut

No significant stray current from the probes. The sump should take care of the DT if there were any stray voltage provided the return pump is on. In theory at least.

 

[P-Dub]

Wait, do i need a grounding probe if I'm wired directly to a GFCI breaker?

Sure do...

 

[P-Dub]

I put one in the sump, one in the tank. Both connected to a GFCI. Double protection.

NICE!!!

 

[P-Dub]

I have mine in the sump
I ordered it from the US by mistake ( I'm UK
They messed up my postage and I had to pay more money to get it released from the post office ....but the company was kind enough to send me another for free
Does anyone know the make and if so are they any good
The spare is going in the garage frag tank

A grounding probe is a grounding probe... so long as it is titanium you should be good. Just check the wires occasionally. The wire insulation can get stiff and if manipulated much can develop cracks in the wire insulation. Then there is potential copper wires in your tank. BUT, this is true for any piece of electrical equipment we place in our systems.

 

[Sleepydoc]

Wait, do i need a grounding probe if I'm wired directly to a GFCI breaker?

As stated above, a GFCI will only trip if there is a current difference between the two prongs of the plug (i.e. more current is going out than coming back.) In this case, it assumes something (like you) is forming an alternate path to ground and shutting off the current so you don't get injured. If there is no alternate ground path, then the GFCi will be quite happy.

If you take the extreme case, you can have a cord with two bare wires at one end and a non-grounded plug at the other end. The current will flow out one wire, though the water, into the other wire and back to the outlet. Assuming there’s not enough current to trip the circuit breaker, the currents in the two legs will match, so the GFCI will be happy. There will be quite a bit of stray voltage in the water and you probably wouldn't want to stick your hand in there, although the GFCI should trip as soon as you form an alternate ground path.

Adding a ground probe gives an alternate path to ground and will cause the GFCI to trip immediately. GFCI’s and ground probes have been debated adnauseum. I won’t get into the GFCI debate, but the arguments against ground probes are:

• They can heat up in the case of a high current situation.
• If you have a fault, the ground probe will cause a GFCI to trip, potentially shutting down your tank while you’re not home.
• If you have a GFCI, they shouldn’t be necessary because the GFCI will protect you
• I’ve read reports associating them with lateral line disease

The arguments for a ground probe are

• It will trip the GFCI before you even have a chance to dip your finger in the tank
• If you have exposed wiring causing a current leak, it could be leaching copper or other chemicals into the tank and a ground probe will alert you to it immediately.
• Stray voltage is associated with lateral line disease

You’ll note the last argument appears both in the for and against sections - that tells you how much actual data there is for it on either side!

There is a lengthy debate on grounding probes here in which @Brew12 argues the case for ground probes. Personally, I dont’ have one, primarily because of the concern about it tripping while I’m away, but there are very valid reasons to get one, particularly point #2, so I’ll probalby get one in the future. GFCI should be a no-brainer, IMO.

 

[Brew12]

As stated above, a GFCI will only trip if there is a current difference between the two prongs of the plug (i.e. more current is going out than coming back.) In this case, it assumes something (like you) is forming an alternate path to ground and shutting off the current so you don't get injured. If there is no alternate ground path, then the GFCi will be quite happy.

If you take the extreme case, you can have a cord with two bare wires at one end and a non-grounded plug at the other end. The current will flow out one wire, though the water, into the other wire and back to the outlet. Assuming there’s not enough current to trip the circuit breaker, the currents in the two legs will match, so the GFCI will be happy. There will be quite a bit of stray voltage in the water and you probably wouldn't want to stick your hand in there, although the GFCI should trip as soon as you form an alternate ground path.

Adding a ground probe gives an alternate path to ground and will cause the GFCI to trip immediately. GFCI’s and ground probes have been debated adnauseum. I won’t get into the GFCI debate, but the arguments against ground probes are:

• They can heat up in the case of a high current situation.
• If you have a fault, the ground probe will cause a GFCI to trip, potentially shutting down your tank while you’re not home.
• If you have a GFCI, they shouldn’t be necessary because the GFCI will protect you
• I’ve read reports associating them with lateral line disease

The arguments for a ground probe are

• It will trip the GFCI before you even have a chance to dip your finger in the tank
• If you have exposed wiring causing a current leak, it could be leaching copper or other chemicals into the tank and a ground probe will alert you to it immediately.
• Stray voltage is associated with lateral line disease

You’ll note the last argument appears both in the for and against sections - that tells you how much actual data there is for it on either side!

There is a lengthy debate on grounding probes here in which @Brew12 argues the case for ground probes. Personally, I dont’ have one, primarily because of the concern about it tripping while I’m away, but there are very valid reasons to get one, particularly point #2, so I’ll probalby get one in the future. GFCI should be a no-brainer, IMO.

Very well stated.

Just to add about it tripping while away... I would never run a system on just one GFCI because of that concern. I built a panel with 4 GFCI's for my first system so that each submerged component had it's own GFCI. I simplified it with my second system and dropped it down to 2 GFCI. Either my powerheads or return pump will trip, but not both. My tank should be able to survive at least a day or two if either GFCI trips.

 

[P-Dub]

Very well stated.

Just to add about it tripping while away... I would never run a system on just one GFCI because of that concern. I built a panel with 4 GFCI's for my first system so that each submerged component had it's own GFCI. I simplified it with my second system and dropped it down to 2 GFCI. Either my powerheads or return pump will trip, but not both. My tank should be able to survive at least a day or two if either GFCI trips.

That is some good advice there.

 

[Sleepydoc]

Very well stated.

Just to add about it tripping while away... I would never run a system on just one GFCI because of that concern. I built a panel with 4 GFCI's for my first system so that each submerged component had it's own GFCI. I simplified it with my second system and dropped it down to 2 GFCI. Either my powerheads or return pump will trip, but not both. My tank should be able to survive at least a day or two if either GFCI trips.

That's a good system. It may be a bit more than a lot of people can/want to do, but it solves the issue. Really, all you need is to have your return pump on a separate circuit from everything else. I actually have 2 circuits to my tank. One has a GFCI at the breaker, the other at the wall outlet, so using your technique would involve swapping out the breaker or the outlet. What I think I'll do instead is plug my return pump into one outlet and the EB832 into the other. The return pump is a COR 20, so it will keep running even if the Apex turns off.

 

[User1]

So....in summary it is a good idea to have a grounding probe(?) and/or GCFI or both?

Right now I am pretty sure, no I am positive, my primary plug that my Apex bar is plugged into is not a GCFI. I can fix that easy enough. Second part is with regards to the probe. Sump, display, or both and it runs to the GCFI? Or does it go to a completely different outlet? Figured I would ask because this is something I should probably do. I can replace the outlet this weekend with the GCFI.

 

[Brew12]

So....in summary it is a good idea to have a grounding probe(?) and/or GCFI or both?

Right now I am pretty sure, no I am positive, my primary plug that my Apex bar is plugged into is not a GCFI. I can fix that easy enough. Second part is with regards to the probe. Sump, display, or both and it runs to the GCFI? Or does it go to a completely different outlet? Figured I would ask because this is something I should probably do. I can replace the outlet this weekend with the GCFI.

I only have a probe in my sump and it can be run to any outlet.

 

[Breva1100]

I know that if you stand barefoot on a concrete or tile floor and stick your hand in an aquarium with circulation pumps or other electrical stuff in the water, you will feel a slight tingle. It is never a good idea to be well grounded and stick your hand in water with electrical devices in them. The cheaper aquarium electrical stuff (pumps, heaters, filters, etc.) do not have a ground they are two prong, positive and negative. I have a saltwater tank that I believe has some stray electricity. All of my pumps, protein skimmer, lights, auto top off and heater are three prong, so they have a ground. They are also plugged into a power strip that has a ground and the outlet is on a series of 6 plugs that has an GFI plug at the beginning of the series, so everything should be fine. However, I sometimes feel a tingle when I place my hand in the water to clean the tank. I took a voltage meter and checked for stray voltage, water and saltwater conduct electricity so you will always get a slight reading, so you have to figure out if there is anything extra besides conductivity. I could never find a reading above appropriate background conductivity.

But thinking better safe than sorry I got a probe and connected it to the outlet cover screw as instructed, everything worked perfectly until I went to bed. At 1:00 am the GFI plug tripped and shut down the entire fish room, all the lights are on timers so I can tell what time the power went off. I reset the GFI plug twice, before just disconnecting the probe. Everything has been fine now for five days. Now the dilemma, track down the possible short or ground the probe but not to the circuit?

 

[Brew12]

I reset the GFI plug twice, before just disconnecting the probe. Everything has been fine now for five days. Now the dilemma, track down the possible short or ground the probe but not to the circuit?

I'm sorry you are having to deal with this. Unless you have a faulty GFCI, you have something in your tank that failing. Aside from the electrical risk, this also likely means you have energized copper exposed to your tank water which will rapidly corrode and leach that copper into your system. I would make it a priority to try and figure out what is tripping the GFCI. Ideally, you would connect the ground probe back up and run each piece of equipment on the GFCI for a few minutes, one at a time. The damaged one should trip the GFCI. If you don't have time to do this soon, I would recommend running GAC or Polyfilters in your system to help handle any contaminants that may leach into your tank water.

The cheaper aquarium electrical stuff (pumps, heaters, filters, etc.) do not have a ground they are two prong, positive and negative.

This isn't quite right but maybe I can help.
In order for something in the US to have 2 prongs it must be "double insulated". Just as the name implies, there must be two insulating barriers between an energized conductor and the person using the device. Most of the time you will see 2 prongs on something with a plastic housing. One plug is the "hot" or 120V supply, the other is the neutral.
On a 3 prong device, it works much the same way. The additional prong is a ground plug. The ground plug must be connected to the exposed conductive part of the tool or equipment such as its metal case. Where you see this most in aquariums is on metal light fixture housings or titanium heaters.
There is little difference between the ground and the neutral from an electrical perspective. They are both tied together in your homes electrical panel.