Poll: Have you kept a Flame Angel pair?

theMeat · Apr 23, 2018

Sorry Mike it’s been years. Have a male and a female so can tell you the differences. Also remember what I was looking for for a long time when shopping for a female. Mostly all flames you see are male. Because they get shipped alone, and if they haven’t changed already during shipping get put into the lfs tank alone. So you gotta get a female asap after shipped, be persistent, and get lucky

mike werner · Apr 23, 2018

pcon said:
This is blatantly false. Almost any reputable reference publication will list sexual dimorphism in centropyge; My favorite reference for this is Scott Michael's Angelfishes & Butterflyfishes. Flame angels have by far the most distinctive and obvious sexual dimorphism in the genus. It being obvious in size, colartion, and fin structure. Males have clearly pointed anal and dorsal fins at the caudal area, are more yellow, and have more blue on the dorsal and anal fins. If you can't tell the difference between the male and female during spawning you need to research more, or they aren't actually spawning; centropyge have distinct roles during copulation.

ok I should have said" as far as I know".my bad i appreciate the reference and I will give it a read

pcon · Apr 23, 2018

theMeat said:
That’s just bad info. Angel fish aren’t like clown fish which can change back and forth. Once it starts to change male that’s it, it’s male.
Males have pointier dorsal and pelvic fins, not rounded as with females.
Males have an extra black stripe. Which can get confusing since flames that come from dif parts of the world can have dif markings. But if they came from the same place in the same shipment, easy.
There’s also subtle coloring dif, males are brighter.

This in no way means that if you put them in a small tank together to “pair” that it’s 100% it will work. Or that you won’t at least have a few days of bickering

It recently came to my attention that, Some evidence has shown that bidirectional sex change is possible in the Centropyge genus. @Claus84 pointed out this article which I had not heard of previously. Sexually Dichromatic Protogynous Angelfish Centropyge ferrugata (Pomacanthidae) Males Can Change Back to Females
I think it can be safely said that this is not typical, and not something that we should consider as part of our pairing process, however it is interesting.

I have heard of the extra black stripe on male flames but not seen any evidence for it. Has anyone seen a female gain a stripe when it transitions to male?
For reference the Scott Michael book says:

Male is more orange overall and has broader dark bars on side, some of which may have an orange line in the center. Male also has more blue on trim on posterior edge of dorsal and anal fins.

mike werner said:
ok I should have said" as far as I know".my bad i appreciate the reference and I will give it a read

Sorry to have been harsh. The book is very good, A little pricy but well worth it. Thorough, well illustrated, and relatively recent.

mike werner · Apr 23, 2018

pcon said:
It recently came to my attention that, Some evidence has shown that bidirectional sex change is possible in the Centropyge genus. @Claus84 pointed out this article which I had not heard of previously. Sexually Dichromatic Protogynous Angelfish Centropyge ferrugata (Pomacanthidae) Males Can Change Back to Females
I think it can be safely said that this is not typical, and not something that we should consider as part of our pairing process, however it is interesting.

I have heard of the extra black stripe on male flames but not seen any evidence for it. Has anyone seen a female gain a stripe when it transitions to male?
For reference the Scott Michael book says:

Sorry to have been harsh. The book is very good, A little pricy but well worth it. Thorough, well illustrated, and relatively recent.

no apology necessary pcon.you were just pointing out my mistake and I appreciate it.sometimes I need to pay more attention to how and what I write.this info will help me out in future pairings.live and learn man.

theMeat · Apr 23, 2018

pcon said:
It recently came to my attention that, Some evidence has shown that bidirectional sex change is possible in the Centropyge genus. @Claus84 pointed out this article which I had not heard of previously. Sexually Dichromatic Protogynous Angelfish Centropyge ferrugata (Pomacanthidae) Males Can Change Back to Females
I think it can be safely said that this is not typical, and not something that we should consider as part of our pairing process, however it is interesting.

I have heard of the extra black stripe on male flames but not seen any evidence for it. Has anyone seen a female gain a stripe when it transitions to male?
For reference the Scott Michael book says:

In my best German accent... Very interesting.

Yes, have seen my males second most forward stripe, which wasn’t much of a stripe, more like an oval, become a stripe. His stripes also got bolder and more defined. His body got much redder in color, gained more blue, and generally more vibrant. Where the female did not. The male has also become longer, taller and thinner. The female is thicker/wider when looked at head on. Would have to conclude that since the female didn’t have the change in stripes or body structure that it wasn’t a matter of a maturity change, or at least the case in the specimens I have. Although their stripes were slight dif when they were small and young, which is why I got them, their body shape was identical, but not anymore, although not dramatically

Maddlesrain · Apr 24, 2018

I just found this on google. Can anyone confirm this information as being correct with your own pairs? If this is the case, it seems like it would be very easy to distinguish between a male and female fish.

theMeat · Apr 24, 2018

I can verify that. But worth mentioning that flames from dif places can have dif markings. So to compare they should be close in age and from same place of origin

Me thinks the safest marker is the shape dorsal and pelvic fins

pcon · Apr 24, 2018

@Maddlesrain As far as I know that is correct. the picture looks familiar I think I stumbled across that one when I first started making pairs. They are fairly easy to sex and pair, but the speed with which they can transition (as few as 60 days start to finish) makes it tricky. Kept and shipped alone, mostly males come in. It is confounded as some times transitioning males have not fully developed male coloration, and appear mostly female.

theMeat · Apr 24, 2018

pcon said:
@Maddlesrain As far as I know that is correct. the picture looks familiar I think I stumbled across that one when I first started making pairs. They are fairly easy to sex and pair, but the speed with which they can transition (as few as 60 days start to finish) makes it tricky. Kept and shipped alone, mostly males come in. It is confounded as some times transitioning males have not fully developed male coloration, and appear mostly female.

Yup, which is why the shape of fins as mentioned is imo the best way to tell. Think it’s the first most noticeable thing that happens

pcon · Apr 24, 2018

theMeat said:
Yup, which is why the shape of fins as mentioned is imo the best way to tell. Think it’s the first most noticeable thing that happens

That's what I have noticed as well, usually starting with the anal fin in my experience. which is tricky because I have had females develop a slightly pointy anal fin while paired. the female wasn't killed by the larger male so I assume it didn't transition.

theMeat · Apr 24, 2018

pcon said:
That's what I have noticed as well, usually starting with the anal fin in my experience. which is tricky because I have had females develop a slightly pointy anal fin while paired. the female wasn't killed by the larger male so I assume it didn't transition.

Yeah, i’m Probably calling the fins i’m referring to by the wrong name. I’m referring to the point, or lack of, on the rear most fins above and below the tail

pcon · Apr 24, 2018

theMeat said:
Yeah, i’m Probably calling the fins i’m referring to by the wrong name. I’m referring to the point, or lack of, on the rear most fins above and below the tail

I think those are the dorsal and anal fins. But I am no fish biologist

Maddlesrain · Apr 24, 2018

@pcon and @theMeat
Thanks for the clarification!

Derailing just a bit: is the fin shape and quick sex change true of all dwarf angels? I have a Potter’s angelfish I’ve had for years. I always assume it’s a he, but have never truly confirmed it.

pcon · Apr 24, 2018

"Had it for years" = He, most of the time.
Scott Michael book says

"Male has a broader area of blue in the center of the body than females"

Forgot to add, the fin shape is specific to flame angels, not all centropyge are sexually dimorphic.

Maddlesrain · Apr 24, 2018

pcon said:
"Had it for years" = He, most of the time.
Scott Michael book says

Forgot to add, the fin shape is specific to flame angels, not all centropyge are sexually dimorphic.

I figured with the time frame he’d probably be a he, but thought I’d check. The fish does have a large amount of purple as well.

fabutahoun · Apr 24, 2018

I am keeping a Pair of Coral beauties

OrionN · Apr 25, 2018

I keep harem of Flame angels in my 320. They spawned almost every night. It is really crazy to see my male trying to spawn with multiple females. He would dash around one then the other until finally spawned just right at the light turning our. I got a video of it on you tube somewhere.
Most of the ones on sale at LFS, smaller flame angles are females and the large ones are male. I have communication with an really advance reefer that he put a harem in his 120 gal which included 2 males out of 5. They fought for several week but eventually one of the male reverted to female and thus his harem consist of 1 male and 4 females. This is the one and only account of Flame Angels reverted from male to female. FWIW, I consider this information source very reliable.