Poor Man's Nutrients Control - Donovan's Nitrate Destroyer

[piranhaman00]

I guess my follow up question would be what size tubing are people using to feed the reactor?

 

[twentyleagues]

What dosing pump do you use?

This was 2004ish I am fairly certain it was a litermeter dosing pump. I remember it being adjustable in volume only.

 

[Levinson]

Once in a while I find the flow in and out of the DND stop. It doesn't happen very often like, less than once a month. When it happens I have to increase the flow to restart the feed and bubbles exit the DND outlet then I reduce the flow again once it gets going.
It's just my speculation but I think this might be due to the nitrogen gas build up inside the DND unable to exit through the outlet tube and building pressure inside, stopping the inlet water. I think the fact I'm feeding the inlet with a T split from return could also be a factor that the pump is unable to push the water into the DND once enough pressure is built up inside the DND since the pressure would direct more water to the return outlet through the T split it is connected to instead of pushing the water into the DND.
Has anyone had this kind of issue before? I'm not sure what I can try to fix this, other then using a dedicated pump for the DND.

 

[blazn]

Once in a while I find the flow in and out of the DND stop. It doesn't happen very often like, less than once a month. When it happens I have to increase the flow to restart the feed and bubbles exit the DND outlet then I reduce the flow again once it gets going.
It's just my speculation but I think this might be due to the nitrogen gas build up inside the DND unable to exit through the outlet tube and building pressure inside, stopping the inlet water. I think the fact I'm feeding the inlet with a T split from return could also be a factor that the pump is unable to push the water into the DND once enough pressure is built up inside the DND since the pressure would direct more water to the return outlet through the T split it is connected to instead of pushing the water into the DND.
Has anyone had this kind of issue before? I'm not sure what I can try to fix this, other then using a dedicated pump for the DND.

The input to my DND is fed from a T off of the pump that feeds my dual GFO/AC reactor. I have a valve after the T and before the DND and occasionally, I must slightly adjust it to account for any biofilm/etc buildup that may occur, but I have no issues not using a dedicated pump.

 

[Marshalliom]

so its been 10 more days - dosed the bottle of tims. I have observed that my flow rate has decreased a couple of times so i have increased the flow. Im also getting more back pressure into the intake that if i turn it all the way up it will come out the top of the intake/dosing port so something is def happening in there. the nitrates on the effluent may be slightly lower today.. they have been testing darkest on the salifert test this whole time. today they might be one shade lower.. Im out of tests on my hanna checker so not an exact number. pluse that would get kinda expensive during this phase. Dosing 25ml vodka per day and flow rate is probably 3ml/second, maybe slightly higher.

Ill just let it keep going - day 45 though. thought it woulda kicked in a little by now.

Having just read all 74 pages it looks like Dr Tims isn't recommended for seeding the DND with bacteria. Micro Bactor 7 seems to be more highly regarded as doing a better job. Assuming your DND is still struggling, this could well be the reason.

 

[blazn]

Having just read all 74 pages it looks like Dr Tims isn't recommended for seeding the DND with bacteria. Micro Bactor 7 seems to be more highly regarded as doing a better job. Assuming your DND is still struggling, this could well be the reason.

Good point! If a DND is initially 'struggling' and you've only used a single type of bottled bacteria, it certainly would be a good idea to seed a different bacteria. I did use MB7 and it worked.

 

[Marshalliom]

That's what I plan to use when I build mine which will probably some time next month. Just going through the design stage at the moment so we'll see how it turns out. Using 80mm pipe as I only have a Reefer170 so shouldn't need anyhing huge.

 

[MBruun]

Regarding initial seeding of the DND with bacteria, FaunaMarin Bacto Balls are just perfect. Containing also denitrifying bacteria and dissolve slowly, and thereby constant releasing bacteria.
You can just poor some Bacto Balls in top of chamber one, and turn on the flow.

 

[deome]

I'm on day 2 for my DND; I found this thread a few weeks ago and just built my version (4" pipe 18" high, 1.5" bioballs all through), will be testing effluent weekly once I order more nitrate test materials.

Quoting my Sept 6 post to provide an update.

It has been like a month since I set up my DND, and it is definitely a nitrate destroying beast! Tested effluent this morning; tank nitrates at 35.4ppm, effluent nitrates two hours after dosing at 25ppm!

I noticed a small effect on effluent nitrates last week, about 3ppm difference from tank nitrates, decided to wait until week four before I posted. Materials are 4" pipe (close to $50 at Lowe's for 5 feet of pipe), four test caps ran $1 each, and the effluent hose is 3/8" vinyl. 1.5" bioballs were also pricy, I used about a gallon of them and it set me back another $50. Total cost about $120 for all materials and glue/cement, plus of course cheap vodka (about 150 gallon system, 10ml a day after second week). NOTE: I did not seed the DND with bottled bacteria, nor did I soak the DND for a day, etc. I have a mature tank and figured (correctly, apparently) that my tank's established bacteria would colonize the DND on their own.

It runs off a steady drip/trickle from my manifold; I just used a 1/2" tee to connect the hose to the DND, and dropped it in through the top; the tee provides an easy hole at the top for dosing vodka. The test caps on top are NOT glued; I used a little silicon to hold the effluent hose in place, figured I can seal the 2nd cylinder test cap with plumber's putty if needed, but it doesn't appear to be needed. I used only 1.5" bio balls--no crushed coral, no bio rings, just bio balls, and yet I have not needed to adjust flow. Also, you can't see it in photo, but 1st cylinder has a 1/2" hole just below the test cap to provide an overflow in case of clogs.

Thank you, Donovan and everyone else who contributed to this thread--I've been reefing for two years and this is the first time I've ever managed to get firm control of nitrates without lots of huge water changes! I'm definitely a broke reefer, and even salt is super expensive now.

PS: Yes that's a Sicce utility pump and Python water change hose running my entire return, my return pump is busted and I am improvising

 

[blazn]

Glad you've had success with your DND deome!! Looks like you're well on your way to having complete control of your NO3 level. CONGRATS!!

I had also stumbled across this massive thread and setup a DND very similar to yours (other than 27" in height), so I completely understand how fulfilling it is to see positive results. I can't imagine not having a DND in my system from now on.

Thank you for posting your update!

 

[SPS clown]

Having just read all 74 pages it looks like Dr Tims isn't recommended for seeding the DND with bacteria. Micro Bactor 7 seems to be more highly regarded as doing a better job. Assuming your DND is still struggling, this could well be the reason.

Thanks - so far ive run a whole bottle of mb7 (1st) and a whole bottle of tims through it. My nitrates are actually going up on the effluant right now (75.6 up from 50.7)

My DT is currently completely cloudy, some sort of bacterial bloom happened. I turned off the vodka dosing for now until i get that sorted. Alk dropped.

I had an aggressive gha outbreak last week that i cleaned up and that was my main source of the bloom i think from overdoing it.

But im thinking about taking the dnd apart and maybe increasing the size of the inlet from 1/4 to 3/8?

Im also using 3” pvc, would rather not switch to 4” but it seems like more people have had success with 4”

My DT is 225 with 100g sump. Upgrading the DT to a 500 sometime in the next 6 months after i get this thing working

 

[blazn]

Thanks - so far ive run a whole bottle of mb7 (1st) and a whole bottle of tims through it. My nitrates are actually going up on the effluant right now (75.6 up from 50.7)

My DT is currently completely cloudy, some sort of bacterial bloom happened. I turned off the vodka dosing for now until i get that sorted. Alk dropped.

I had an aggressive gha outbreak last week that i cleaned up and that was my main source of the bloom i think from overdoing it.

But im thinking about taking the dnd apart and maybe increasing the size of the inlet from 1/4 to 3/8?

Im also using 3” pvc, would rather not switch to 4” but it seems like more people have had success with 4”

My DT is 225 with 100g sump. Upgrading the DT to a 500 sometime in the next 6 months after i get this thing working

Although 4" PVC allows for a larger filtration environment and most seemed to have used 4", if I recall, there were several who had posted earlier in this thread that they were successful with 3" PVC DNDs. If you do end up making changes, I definitely would enlarge your inlet. I've got 1/2" input, controlled with a valve, and a 1/4" outlet and it seemed most who had posted used an inlet larger than 1/4".

I definitely hope you keep at it, as it will work and once it does, it is awesome!

 

[Dukereefnz]

Hi - does anyone have a horizontal DND?
My tank is 200G - what length DND is recommended?
4inch or 6inch are possible... 4inch is more accessible and cheaper for parts...

100mm (4in) or 150mm (6in)

I could do a 4in vertical - 800mm of room - total height available.
My No3 is around 30 constantly for 2 yrs.... this will be a great help.

 

[Dukereefnz]

duplicate

 

[Levinson]

Hi - does anyone have a horizontal DND?
My tank is 200G - what length DND is recommended?
4inch or 6inch are possible... 4inch is more accessible and cheaper for parts...

100mm (4in) or 150mm (6in)

I could do a 4in vertical - 800mm of room - total height available.
My No3 is around 30 constantly for 2 yrs.... this will be a great help.

I've seen a horizontal DND posted on this thread somewhere.
I don't know where exactly though.

 

[blazn]

Hi - does anyone have a horizontal DND?
My tank is 200G - what length DND is recommended?
4inch or 6inch are possible... 4inch is more accessible and cheaper for parts...

100mm (4in) or 150mm (6in)

I could do a 4in vertical - 800mm of room - total height available.
My No3 is around 30 constantly for 2 yrs.... this will be a great help.

It's been over a year since I ready thru all the prior posts in this thread, but I agree with Levinson, I believe some had indicated that they implemented a horizontal DND successfully.

Concerning height, PVC diameter, etc, it really doesn't matter, as long as you create a large enough environment for the bacteria to reduce the amount of N03 you need it to, as well as your DND must be designed such that it will be large enough to create an anaerobic zone in order for the N03 to be reduced.

 

[Dukereefnz]

Same - it was a couple of years ago that i read through these pages.
being old, i have forgotten most of it...
Can anyone think of a reason why a horizontal version would not work?
I think I can do vertical.. but i am running out of room in my sump.

Question - as we want dwell time for the water to create an anaerobic zone, is there any advantage to reducing the flow inside ? This is 6inch.. looks huge and i dont think it will fit.. but you get the idea.

 

[blazn]

Same - it was a couple of years ago that i read through these pages.
being old, i have forgotten most of it...
Can anyone think of a reason why a horizontal version would not work?
I think I can do vertical.. but i am running out of room in my sump.

Question - as we want dwell time for the water to create an anaerobic zone, is there any advantage to reducing the flow inside ? This is 6inch.. looks huge and i dont think it will fit.. but you get the idea.

Yes, flow is intentionally limited, which mostly is enforced by using a small output tube, typically 1/4". You will want the ability to increase/decrease flow, especialy during the 'break in' period, as flow & the amount of your carbon source are the two main variables used to adjust the N03 reduction. I use a valve on my input that I adjust when needed.

 

[SPS clown]

Thanks - so far ive run a whole bottle of mb7 (1st) and a whole bottle of tims through it. My nitrates are actually going up on the effluant right now (75.6 up from 50.7)

My DT is currently completely cloudy, some sort of bacterial bloom happened. I turned off the vodka dosing for now until i get that sorted. Alk dropped.

I had an aggressive gha outbreak last week that i cleaned up and that was my main source of the bloom i think from overdoing it.

But im thinking about taking the dnd apart and maybe increasing the size of the inlet from 1/4 to 3/8?

Im also using 3” pvc, would rather not switch to 4” but it seems like more people have had success with 4”

My DT is 225 with 100g sump. Upgrading the DT to a 500 sometime in the next 6 months after i get this thing working

this morning my nitrates were 56 and 30 minutes after dosing vodka were 55... so i decided it was time to open it up and do a hard reset. I took everything out. I took all of the siporax out of the anaerobic zone since that was probably a future issue anyways. i removed the live rock rubble. I had three bags of extra ceramic sitting in my sump this whole time... so i put that in along with the sorted ceramic that was in there before (balls and rings)... hopefully this will help jump start this. There is some siporax in the very top part of the intake zone, i can always take that out later but i didnt have enough to fill it without it.

fingers crossed

 

[SPS clown]

this morning my nitrates were 56 and 30 minutes after dosing vodka were 55... so i decided it was time to open it up and do a hard reset. I took everything out. I took all of the siporax out of the anaerobic zone since that was probably a future issue anyways. i removed the live rock rubble. I had three bags of extra ceramic sitting in my sump this whole time... so i put that in along with the sorted ceramic that was in there before (balls and rings)... hopefully this will help jump start this. There is some siporax in the very top part of the intake zone, i can always take that out later but i didnt have enough to fill it without it.

fingers crossed

Already looking different, 7 point drop 30 minutes after vodka, increased dosage(12*3ml—>12*5ml). Went from 72ppm down to 65. Ive also noticed the flow is much easier to adjust, more linear. I think the live rock rubble was the problem and around flow rate. Smelled almost like bleach inside with alot of whiteish slime.

Interestingly, my tank nitrates were 31. So half the effluent. Im assuming there was a die off or something from opening it up.

Ive done 4 50gal (~15%) water changes this week to get the tank nitrates down while i wait for this to kick in

Posting detail in case anyone stumbles in having the same problem..