Possible Element to No3 Coral Uptake ?

[wattson]

I always hear some people feed their corals and others feed their fish that in return feed the corals..
As a person that has all softies,,Im always on the edge of keeping No3/Po4 in the nutrient mix for feeding the symbiotic algae in corals .
Most by-products of feeding animals and fish in the reef aquarium is their waste generates food for the corals in the reef aquarium..One main component for fish/animal waste is Urea..
It is found in NSW and is only a piece of the nitrogen soup that corals need to grow and calcify..
I have started some internet surfing and came across some interesting reading about Urea topic..
Theres plenty more info on the net but what is the conscientious of this element being dosed into a system like Nitrate dosing has being done to raise nutrients lately?
Heres a link to get your mental gears possibly.. https://www.researchgate.net/public...the_scleractinian_coral_Stylophora_pistillata

 

[Cory]

Interesting so urea might be a preffered sorce of nitrogen for corals. Imo it just means having lots of fish.

 

[wattson]

Interesting so urea might be a preffered sorce of nitrogen for corals. Imo it just means having lots of fish.

Possibly so,,but is it just a peice of the nitrogen source corals need or bigger part of it,,but could it be dosed verses having a ton of fish,,dosing might be easier than the exspense and work of having alot a fish in a system..
Curious what other peoples input will be..

 

[Cory]

Possibly so,,but is it just a peice of the nitrogen source corals need or bigger part of it,,but could it be dosed verses having a ton of fish,,dosing might be easier than the exspense and work of having alot a fish in a system..
Curious what other peoples input will be..

Iirc erea contains ammonia and that could be dangerous. But if your willing to try it, let us know the results!

 

[wattson]

Iirc erea contains ammonia and that could be dangerous. But if your willing to try it, let us know the results!

Im thinking about doing a separate AIO tank with my waste water change water and couple of smaller frags just to see..
Im trying to find the NSW average concentration of Urea and what atom/molecule count for the right Urea N-15 they used in this experiment.

 

[wattson]

Im curious about the Ammonia part of the Urea molecule,,sometimes when you look at your tank,all the corals seem very inflated and looking super healthy,,polyp extension is great,,then you find a dead fish or rotten snail the next day behind the rocks..
Surely everyone has experienced this before,,that situation has to release ammonia into the water..
Im very curious to see what others have say and try dosing urea in a AIO tank to see the outcome..

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Interesting topic. According to this thread (https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/what-are-the-root-causes-of-cyano.338028/), urea is a non-toxic form of ammonia (as stated by Hans Werner).

Dennis

 

[wattson]

Interesting topic. According to this thread (https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/what-are-the-root-causes-of-cyano.338028/), urea is a non-toxic form of ammonia (as stated by Hans Werner).

Dennis

Yep,,a different form of Nitrogen ?
If there are fish in the aquarium,,,they are being fed and all the food cannot be eaten every time,,so what ever food is left behind is generating Ammonia hence the nitrogen cycle all the time..as long as ammonia levels stay super low,,they are not an issue.
Very curious about this Urea topic..
Have to get the chemical and experiment..
Another good read,,a little old from the past but a good read..
https://www.burgerszoo.com/media/560530/chapter-16.pdf

 

[wattson]

Hers another article with the same concept of corals using Urea more than No3
http://successfulreefkeeping.com/learn/about-corals/what-corals-eat/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Urea is an ok way to supplement N, but bear in mind that you don’t have a way to test for it. It is not something they need, but rather is an alternative source of nitrogen.

I don’t quite understand some if the questions above. Urea is NaH2CONH2 and has a molecular weight of 60 g/mole. It does not “contain” ammonia any more than amino acids and proteins do. It is a very different chemical and does not spontaneously release ammonia.

There are lots of ways to supplement N if nitrate is low, or if you just want to experiment, such as any of the various amino acids, nitrate, ammonia, and, as discussed here, urea.

I’d be surprised if folks find it noticeably different than dosing nitrate, but it would be nice to see some actual experiments.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Urea is an ok way to supplement N, but bear in mind that you don’t have a way to test for it. It is not something they need, but rather is an alternative source of nitrogen.

I was thinking about this as well, the difficulty in monitoring it's uptake to make sure it is not building up. The article suggests that corals will use nitrate as a last resort, so if one where to use something like the Aqua Vitro Synthesis product (25% Ammonium, 25% Nitrate, 50% Urea), could the measurable nitrate be indicative of the consumption of the other nitrogen sources. So if your able to test nitrate and see levels declining, this would suggest that the Ammonium and Urea have already been depleted?

For that matter, one could apply the same technique, by dosing Urea and Nitrate additives separately, and then monitoring for uptake of the nitrate. I am not sure if Ammonium has toxicity concerns in saltwater, but by dosing separate additives, it could be avoided if this is the case.

Dennis

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Looks like I answered my own question (on toxicity of ammonium), or rather Randy did a decade ago (http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2007-02/rhf/index.php#2) in his article on Ammonia in the Reef Aquarium.

Based on this, I would probably lean towards dosing separate nitrogen sources rather than one including ammonium if wanting to use Urea with a Nitrate proxy.

Dennis

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

I was thinking about this as well, the difficulty in monitoring it's uptake to make sure it is not building up. The article suggests that corals will use nitrate as a last resort, so if one where to use something like the Aqua Vitro Synthesis product (25% Ammonium, 25% Nitrate, 50% Urea), could the measurable nitrate be indicative of the consumption of the other nitrogen sources. So if your able to test nitrate and see levels declining, this would suggest that the Ammonium and Urea have already been depleted?

For that matter, one could apply the same technique, by dosing Urea and Nitrate additives separately, and then monitoring for uptake of the nitrate. I am not sure if Ammonium has toxicity concerns in saltwater, but by dosing separate additives, it could be avoided if this is the case.

Dennis

I'm not sure what Aqua Vitro Synthesis actually contains since the description " ammoniacal sources" is chemically vague. If it is just Ammonium then from a tox perspective, it's no different than dosing ammonia (I hope Aquavitro understands this )

I do not know how strong the preference is for different nitrogen sources by the various creatures we keep, so I'd be reluctant to make assumptions about one N source's levels based on another.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I'm not sure what Aqua Vitro Synthesis actually contains since the description " ammoniacal sources" is chemically vague. If it is just Ammonium then from a tox perspective, it's no different than dosing ammonia (I hope Aquavitro understands this )

In Seachem's defense, Synthesis is from their planted tank line, so the inclusion of ammonium may be less controversial in that environment.

After reading your article on ammonia, does the toxicity mainly apply to fish and other lifeforms that depend on the concentration gradient? What about corals? I am curious about its application to fishless coral propagation tanks.

Dennis

 

[wattson]

Very good reading,,true the testing part would be hard to do ,,since this element is not routinely thought of to be tested for..
I have came across a Laboratory supply place website and the had different ureas you can buy,,they went by atom count and purity.
Thats where all my remarks came from..
I am planning to set up a small AIO tank/coral QT and try this with a few different frags of softies I have,,just to see if theres a difference in behavior/growth of the corals..It surely would be a work in progress..
Which Urea chemical would you suggest that simulates NSW Urea the closest?
Also in the article they Used Urea 15N..whats the difference per your thoughts?
or is Urea ,Urea,,just a difference in grades/purity of it.

 

[wattson]

Randy,which one would you get to try this experiment with ?
Purity being the difference and what form it comes in .
https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/aldrich/208884?lang=en&region=US

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

In Seachem's defense, Synthesis is from their planted tank line, so the inclusion of ammonium may be less controversial in that environment.

After reading your article on ammonia, does the toxicity mainly apply to fish and other lifeforms that depend on the concentration gradient? What about corals? I am curious about its application to fishless coral propagation tanks.

Dennis

Or it may not be ammonium but something they consider ammonium-like. They have (IMO) oddly identified some of the ingredients in their products with nonstandard chemistry names, perhaps to deter copycats.

The Seachem Fluorish nitrogen is a perfect example.

http://www.seachem.com/flourish-nitrogen.php

"Derived from: potassium nitrate, urea (iminium salt)"

So does it contain urea or not?

urea is not an iminium salt, which carries a positive charge on the nitrogen, while urea has no charge:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iminium

I can't tell if it is some unusual compound, or if they have issues getting names correct.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I guess one could confirm if it is ammonium by dosing it into some new ASW. Then measuring the PH, and doing an ammonia test to see if the expected percentage (of the 25% of the dosed amount) has converted to ammonia and is detectable by the test kit.

I agree, it would be a whole lot easier if they just labelled their products in a more forthcoming fashion. In this day and age, security through offuscation does little to impede competitors and only harms the consumers of their products.

Dennis

 

[wattson]

glass is being cut to make my AIO tank and Urea ordered..really wanting to try out dosing this in a seperate tank to see the results..will update when I get the tank all assembled and up n running.
waiting time is biggest thing for silicone to cure from installing wall and baffles to make the AIO tank.