I have a 180 gallon tank, I’m wanting to get one or more lion fish. I’d prefer the dwarf ones and was looking at Mombasa but from what I’ve seen looks like those are harder to care for. It will be in a business And I will only be there four days a week sometimes five, so would be a little harder to feed live which I am seeing looks like it might be necessary so would potentially be willing to give it a try if that’s the only way. We would love about 3-4 of them if possible but know it might not work out. What type of lion would be the best suited to that if any and what would I need to change in order to make it work. Would prefer to keep something under 8 inches or so.
Possible lion fish for 180 Gallon tank
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WVNed
The fish are staring at me with hungry eyes.
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@lion king
I had 3 different kinds in a 75 and it went really well but 2 died eventually. I have read on here with 3 of the same kind they may fight if 2 or more are male. I had a zebra, fuzzy dwarf and antenatta.
Mine only eat live food after 2 years. Ghost shrimp are the favorite when small and guppies and mollies when larger.
They Just need places to hide/rest which they often do upside down on the bottom of something.
I still have the zebra.
I had 3 different kinds in a 75 and it went really well but 2 died eventually. I have read on here with 3 of the same kind they may fight if 2 or more are male. I had a zebra, fuzzy dwarf and antenatta.
Mine only eat live food after 2 years. Ghost shrimp are the favorite when small and guppies and mollies when larger.
They Just need places to hide/rest which they often do upside down on the bottom of something.
I still have the zebra.
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Cobystolz
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So you only feed them live food or they just started eating live food? It would be kinda hard to keep up with feeding live for our situation unfortunately so That will have to determine if we get any or not. I don’t want to get one if it’s just gonna Die but we would definitely like to get some.@lion king
I had 3 different kinds in a 75 and it went really well but 2 died eventually. I have read on here with 3 of the same kind they may fight if 2 or more are male. I had a zebra, fuzzy dwarf and antenatta.
Mine only eat live food after 2 years. Ghost shrimp are the favorite when small and guppies and mollies when larger.
They Just need places to hide/rest which they often do upside down on the bottom of something.
I still have the zebra.
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WVNed
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When I would got mine they were quite small. All they would eat were live ghost shrimp. There are other fish in the tank that get frozen food. They never touched it or even looked at it as they grew. After wasting hours of my life wiggling things trying to get them to eat it I quit.
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I would recommend a volitan or a miles, which is a slightly smaller version of the volitan. The volitan will get over 8", likely 10-12"; with the miles usually settling just at 8-9". It's really hard to tell the difference and most so called experts don't even get it right, These will take to dead food rather easily and eat enough variety to satisfy their nutritional requirements. You can never be guaranteed if a dwarf or medium bodied lion will take to dead food, and if they do they are usually so selective and difficult to get them eating the right foods. In a more rare situation rather than the rule, you may get one to eat the variety of dead food needed for long term success. For loads of info on keeping lions, click my name and "find all threads". Young small lions need feeding maybe every other day while eventually a couple times a week, overfeeding in the form of feeding too often can be a killer, developing fatty liver disease. Another cause of premature death is Vitamine B1 deficiency due to feeding foods with too much thiaminese; ala krill, old frozen shrimp, and many brands of silversides with the exception of Hikari. These seem to be the foods that most of the smaller species accept, if they accept any at all, that's why they are so difficult to keep long term on a dead only diet. Salmon, mussels, scallops, shrimp with shells, and Hikari silversides will keep a volitan happy for a decade or more. Try to buy fresh and freeze small batches, nutrients degrade and the thiaminese doesn't. Build your rock scape with multiple caves and vertical perching areas and you may be able to keep up to 3 volitan/miles in a 180g. I say "may" because there are always variables, you can not sex these species visually so there is always a chance for male on male aggression.
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@lion king
I had 3 different kinds in a 75 and it went really well but 2 died eventually. I have read on here with 3 of the same kind they may fight if 2 or more are male. I had a zebra, fuzzy dwarf and antenatta.
Mine only eat live food after 2 years. Ghost shrimp are the favorite when small and guppies and mollies when larger.
They Just need places to hide/rest which they often do upside down on the bottom of something.
I still have the zebra.
Tell me about the 2 that died. At 2 years you are usually out of the woods, unexpected death usually appears closer to the 1.5 year mark or under. Most of the lions that I dissected after an unexpected death, has severe liver damage. Liver failure doesn't happen overnight, and the initial damage could have occurred before you got them, completely out of your control. Lions obtained from a source running copper or the use of antibiotics being the most common culprits. And of course if you used any of these chemicals(meds), Tank cleaners of any kind and really any meds other than gc, paracleanse, or prazi pro can be subject to causing damage. Overfeeding can be also be a culprit, but usually shows up at 3 or more years. If feeding more often than every 2-3 days it can be a problem. There was nothing wrong with their diet so we can rue out a nutritional defiencency. If it was murder you would see a wound from a spike(s).
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WVNed
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I am pretty sure one died when an eel moved a loose rock. It was flat under it. The second was simply dead in his favorite place to sleep. I found him that way when he didnt come out to eat like usual. He was of normal color and completely intact.
They are beautiful and have a great personality. It broke my heart and I am not sure I will attempt more. It has become very difficult to keep them fed. Everyone that was selling livebearers has dried up. I am getting a few here and there but as you pointed out my zebra doesn't seem to need very much now that he is grown.
I recently upgraded the 75 to a 180. It has 3 butterflies, the zebra and 2 snowflake eels in it. I may look into the miles.
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Cobystolz
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Thank you so much for all the information, I will definitely be looking at other stuff you commented on or posted. What live food is best for the dwarves? I would really love to have one of those but definitely sounds more complicated. I’m assuming they need a mixed live food and can’t just feed them one species? As for the miles or volitan it sounds like we may end up going with those, probably the miles if they are similar care but smaller. There is three other fish I care about in the tank id prefer to keep, a decent sized blue hippo tang, a yellow eye kole tang and a flame angel. All three are about full size I believe, with the exception of the hippo. Is it likely they would have problems? Whether being eaten or stabbed? One other thing would be flow, can they handle decent flow? I read it might be best to have low flow, it’s not crazy high flow but definitely not the lowest. I can definitely lower the flow a bit though. Here is a picture of the tank, it’s a really old picture and almost all the coral is not there anymore, it is mostly soft coral now. There is a huge green sinularia on the left side but that’s it for the most part other than some small mushrooms and stuff. Sorry to have so many questions I just want to make sure if we do it I’m not gonna just kill them.
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Your other fish will have no problems. They are fine with all but the highest of flow, like sps flow. They get used to it and if too much will perch alot and not be as active. Lions are many times misunderstood, as in the right conditions and not overfed, can be quite active. Just make sure there are areas like caves or back sides of a cliff edge they can perch to get out of the flow if they choose. You mentioned the mombasa, which is a medium bodied lion that does top out at about 7", really is a very difficult fish that just doesn't make it for some reason. The antennata looks very similar and I have kept them successfully for many years, they tend not to eat dead food. Live food choices are very simple; ghost shrimp, guppies and mollies. They can live mostly on ghosties with an occasional fish added in. Read through some of my threads for much detail on feeding. The dwarf fuzzy has the best reputation for eating dead food, but is still a challenge to get eating the proper food, so in end most still perish within 1.5 years due to nutritional deficiencies. Because of the feeding challenges, I prefer to keep the dwarf and medium bodied lions in smaller tanks than a 180g. Although I did keep a fuzzy in a 180g for several years, but honestly, he was pita.
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Cobystolz
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Awesome thank you, I spent the last hour looking through some of your old posts and I’m thinking maybe the best bet would be like you said to just get two or three of the volitans or miles? I do really like the antenata with the long frilly fins though. We will be able to do some live feeding but will ideally want it to be maybe like once or twice a week live feeding with a once a week dead. Does that sound like something that would be doable with the antenata or will they pretty much only eat live. The problem is our store is forty minutes away and I only work there four days a week so there will be the three days in a row I can’t be there to feed but I could have someone feed dead. Also if I were to throw a bunch of mollies in the tank for the week or something like that would that lead to issues with them overfeeding? I know some fish I have would eat until they die and I’m not sure if lions would do the same thing if given that opportunity.
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Lions can eat themselves to death. If amtennata's take dead food at all it will take special effort on your part and it's much more than dropping food in. Lions need to be target fed. Smaller ones need to be fed more frequently like every other day then as they get larger, a couple of times a week is fine.
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It will depend on what else is going in the tank. If you are keeping it a lion dominant tank with minimum other adfitions, then 3 could be very nice. But feeding is still a chore as they do have to be target fed, so you have to consider that. My last volitan got to about 12", after more than 10 years, likely closer to 12, but he even filled up a 210g. Most with stay closer to 10-11", but thats still alot of fish with a wingspan almost as wide. Get them smaller and allow them to grow together. It will vary to their activity, if they are active swimmers or perch alot. There' a black lion that's quite striking, you can find a pic of mine in the liin lovers thread.
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Cobystolz
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I don’t plan on adding much else to the tank, gonna mostly keep it with the lions, the blue hippo tang, The flame angel and the kole tang. And whatever damsels manage to survive, which is another question I guess. If I have about six or eight damsels already in there how likely would it be the lions might overfeed themselves on them? I don’t care if they get eaten but don’t want them being eaten to harm the lions. Also I heard that copper can be bad for them? How bad is it? Like if it’s in any copper for a few days could kill it? Ended up going with one dwarf zebra for now, I don’t know what the likelihood of being able to add more later is but figured for now we’ll just go with one and get more if possible but if not stick with the one. But I had to have the pet store order it and I don’t know if it would be best to pick it up right away still in it’s own bag or wait a few days to pick it up. A friend who used to work there said he recommended waiting a few days because sometimes they’d come in dead or dying and didn’t want me to get a sick one that was doomed to die in a few days so said it would be best to let them keep it a couple days but I’m not sure if they have any copper or anything in the tanks. Sorry for all the questions but I really appreciate the help, I’ve tried to search to find as many answers as I could before asking but I had a hard time with some. That black lion you have is amazing by the way, I had no idea they even came in that color
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Copper is a death sentence, it's highly destructive on their liver and is best to completely avoided. If it doesn't kill them quickly it causes damage which eventually causes liver failure. Most lions don't live very long coming sources running copper. While lions even including the dwarf species will eat damsels, damsels are so elusive it will likely take them time to get to all of them. Size will alao play a role whether they eat them or not. I always pick my special orders up in the bag, multiple acclimations within a short period of time can be detrimental. Pay close attention to the shipping sg compared to your tank, you never want to raise the sg more than .002 even with an hour acclimation. Going lower is no problem.
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Cobystolz
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Awesome thank you so much for taking the time to respond, I will ask them if they have copper in their system then. They have an antenata that has been there for probably five to six months at this point. If they had copper would it likely be dead by then? Apparently it’s eating all kinds of frozen food, if I got that one also and fed it a diet of salmon and other fresh food like your one post About frozen food mentions along with occasional live ghost shrimp do you think it might be worth getting? That’s good to know with the damsels, I figured they would probably be a snack but was hoping they might be fast enough to not become an instant all you can eat buffet.
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I would curious as to what they are feeding the antennata. If it is a krill dominant diet it will need to be changed quickly. Thats what many will eat and it leads to vit B1 defiencency and an early demise, usually not much more than a year, at most. They can survive in sub thearaputic levels of copper, but again usually not much more than a year, liver damage will have been done and its just a matter of time.
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Cobystolz
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Ok, hopefully they don’t then, now that I think about it though they do have a decorator crab in the same system so might not have any copper in it, I know inverts are really sensitive to it right? I’ll ask them though, I’m hoping they don’t because I’d like to get it if not. I believe he said they were feeding it silversides and I’m pretty sure it’s probably the Hikari brand, ghost shrimp and gold fish, and I think one or two other things. Possibly some krill but definitely didn’t seem like it was a krill dominant diet
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Goldfish is another no no, but there;s time to make a diet change. If they are keeping them in a system with inverts, there is no copper, so it's sounds like they know of the copper sensitivity. Some lfs will keep sensitive fish in their invert system. Sounds like they may be feeding some dead but not a dead only diet. Thats the way with many of these species of lions. they just never consume enough dead food, or enough of the right dead food for long term success.
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Cobystolz
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Ok awesome, I don’t know how much they feed the goldfish but I know it’s at least mixed with a few other things. And yeah o think that’s what he said is they feed it about half and half dead and live. I’ll probably have to pick it up and give it a try at least then, especially if they don’t have copper In the system
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