Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

[BigJohnny]

Amazing that, in all these years we have observed RTN, nobody ever thought to put the coral under a standard microscope and see the very evident microfauna crawling all over it. Maybe they just didn’t have anything to sell.

Doc, you did contradict yourself in your video. Early on, you said this protozoan caused all ‘non-stress related RTN events’, and then later said it was responsible for ‘all RTN events’

He contradicts himself in many ways, on the website too.

 

[Prime Coral]

Very interesting topic, I just have an acro RTN yesterday and tried to save the rest by cutting off the infected portions. Today I found RTN continued with the rest! only one branch still hanging on but I doubt it can survive!
I know all of us will be frustrated to see our corals to be RTN...so, if there is a possible solution to stop, it maybe worth to try...Does anyone experience with STOP RTN reagents from Coral Prime?

I recommend getting RTNing corals out of your DT and into isolation ASAP to reduce spread of infection by protozoans

 

[MnFish1]

Tha


Again Metro doesn’t kill the Philaster protozoan. Do yourself a favor and get a microscope, culture the Philaster from an RTNing coral and add as much Metronidazole as you want. They won’t die.

If thats the case, why do they say it does in the research quoted? Another thing missing from your documentation is the 'rationale' In most scientific papers (in the introduction- for example it states something like: (i.e. example Philaster is ascciated with RTN (reference) and that Philaster is killed by YYYY (reference) Thus we designed this study to determine whether YYY can prevent RTN. )

There is absolutely no rationale given for your premise, your study or anything.

 

[BigJohnny]

It think it’s possible that if a tank has perfect parameters and all elements are on point that the coral will not get stressed and therefore not be attacked.

Ok so you do realize that contradicts what hes saying right?

 

[ca1ore]

I am here to deliver you from darkness and ignorance!

Hopefully that was intended tongue in cheek; if not, comments like that certainly don’t do much for your credibility.

 

[Prime Coral]

I disagree. Remember back when Linus Pauling was "sure that high dose vitamin C cured the common cold?"

With all due respect, you're not the only 'scientist' here. Your experimental proof has never been shown. I asked several posts ago to describe the methods you used to obtain a pure culture of Philaster - and then 'reinfect coral'. Unless you did something to prevent ANY OTHER KIND OF bacteria, virus, fungus, or ciliate - and did genetic testing on the ciliates both before and after there is no way to know if you fulfilled Kochs postulates. Id like to know how you obtained a 'pure culture' of Philaster - and how you proved that? Maybe you have done all these things - you just aren't stating that in your evidence.

As a scientist, It seems that the way to go about something like this -is to write an article and send it to a peer reviewed journal and let other experts in the field analyze your methods and conclusions. You certainly have the scientific background to do so - I have written several myself.

I'll ask again - why is the product not fish safe? How do you know its safe for every other oceanic life form? Lets say its 'a fact' that it kills Philaster and many other worms. What harm will that do to tank biodiversity/ etc?

This close minded dogmatism is exactly why we have been without answers about RTN and STN for 50 years.
1. I used a microscope for all experiments. You can see bacteria with a microscope, that’s how they were first discovered. There were no funguses nor viruses nor bacteria, only protozoans and their bellies were full of coral tissue and zooxanthella. No other microorganism was present. I used a microscope and micro pipette to isolate Philaster
2. Protozoans are not worms
3. Extensive testing was performed on treated systems and there were no effects on anything in the reef system except the protozoans and if overdosed fish will die. The in tank treatment affects fishes ability to have gas exchange across their gills, that is the reason.

 

[BigJohnny]

Everyone read post 175 and 176, contradicts himself again.

 

[ca1ore]

Ca1ore,
My thoughts are that most of us have had RTN because of a mild stress event. Depending on the heath of the corals at that given time depends which corals get attack IMO. Just like with humans, some of us get sick because our immune systems may be lacking which allows the bugs to have access. If a coral is doing well...getting the proper lighting, flow, nutrition, etc...then that particular coral isn’t stressed and his immune system is strong, but the coral that’s receiving too much light or is lacking light and flow is likely becoming compromised allowing the door to swing wide open for the Philaster’s.

I think we all have these things and depending on our maintenance and attention to detail to keep perfect parameters, proper trace elements, nutrients, nutrition, light, flow, heat, etc...will depend on the health of our corals. I feel a lot of these things are luck, but no doubt there’s very intelligent reefers who are just on top of every single thing and keep daily logs books.

That fine and, frankly, I’d mostly agree. I made the point earlier that it is possible to have a tank with latent ich yet not have sick fish because they can fight it off. What I find broadly distasteful about this thread is the level of certainty (it must be true because I know it to be true) and the somewhat childish attitude of prime coral. There were studies linked earlier that strike a much more credible tone to me. Anyhow, no wish to go round and round on this. I shall bow out and simply see how this goes forward.

 

[Prime Coral]

LOL, you aren't modest in the slightest

Just the facts.
I know the subject very well and know all the scientific literature on the subject going back to the 60s. No one has ever proven the cause of RTN and STN but now we know. I want people to know the truth. RTN and STN are due to coral infection with a protozoan that infects the gastrovascular cavity and eats the coral tissue to get the zooxanthella. They don’t need the coral to be sick or weakened to infect a coral. They are the Apex coral predator. They are great swimmers and swimmer on one coral to another to spread disease. These are facts I have witnessed and recorded. There is so much more to share and discover about them but I can’t if I have to constantly defend my findings.

 

[BigJohnny]

There were no flaws in the study. I see you have a bone to pick with me. Maybe your comments stem from some anger you are misdirecting to me. Before you criticize the work I have done which took about 1,000 hours of my time, I recommend you perform your own experiments. I have outlined all you need and if you spend the time to learn how to use a microscope and go through the extensive training needed to run a lab and perform these types of experiments then you can share FACTS with us.
I don’t have to spend hours of my time wasted on useless banter with you. There will be non believers for now and that is something I cannot control. I have dealt with your type many times before and there is NO sense to it as you are unwilling to ever accept the truth from me but you will eventually understand the facts. Good luck.

Haha man, that was a pathetic attempt to deflect and redirect so that you can continue to ignore the holes in your research and conclusions.

Every single question I asked was valid and could impact the study significantly. Nice try though.

Deflect and deflect, insult and insult, less people are trusting you by the minute. Good luck to you buddy, you are the one who needs it.

 

[Prime Coral]

That fine and, frankly, I’d mostly agree. I made the point earlier that it is possible to have a tank with latent ich yet not have sick fish because they can fight it off. What I find broadly distasteful about this thread is the level of certainty (it must be true because I know it to be true) and the somewhat childish attitude of prime coral. There were studies linked earlier that strike a much more credible tone to me. Anyhow, no wish to go round and round on this. I shall bow out and simply see how this goes forward.

Never said “it must be true because I said it’s true”. I have given irrefutable proof by the results of the experiments I conducted in 2018 at Prime Coral labs. I find many of the commments made here by others to be childish.

 

[ca1ore]

I find many of the commments made here by others to be childish.

Then as a highly edumacated man, why don’t you try taking the high road. Has mostly worked for me here.

 

[Prime Coral]

Well, no, though if it does actually turn out to be true, you might be credited with advancing the field. Since you've stated that you're a scientist, then you presumably have to know that for a theory to be accepted as fact, the evidence must first be verified by other scientists in the field. It must then be published and stand up to peer review.

I wholly agree with your first statement, “ must be verified by other scientists” and it will and already has to an extent. There are others that have purchased the microscope and begun work. They have already made some of the same findings as I have . I am certain
https://coralrtn.com/experimental-evidence/
And

 

[Prime Coral]

Then as a highly edumacated man, why don’t you try taking the high road. Has mostly worked for me here.

Please tell me what is the high road in your opinion?

 

[Prime Coral]

Considering one of his earlier hip shots insinuating someone was a flat earther simply for questioning the results, I HIGHLY doubt he'd be ok with someone wanting to peer review his findings. Its also likely why he's only providing links to his website and youtube videos, no paper for review.

Results PUBLISHED on website
Reviewed by my Peers (you and thousands of others)
Have had this discussion many times before
Peer review means just that, peer reviewed. Nothing else.

 

[Prime Coral]

Is the dip and the in tank treatment the same ingredients? Or composed of different ingredients? Is the dip supposed to be more effective?

Different ingredients
Cannot use dip in tank

 

[BigJohnny]

l I said all RTN and STN are due to the protozoan parasites.

Website quote:

"FACT: The number one cause of RTN are the Philaster Lucinda and Philaster Guamense parasites."

Busted. You've also said several times that "extreme" environmental swings can cause it. Like boiling lol

 

[MnFish1]

This close minded dogmatism is exactly why we have been without answers about RTN and STN for 50 years.
1. I used a microscope for all experiments. You can see bacteria with a microscope, that’s how they were first discovered. There were no funguses nor viruses nor bacteria, only protozoans and their bellies were full of coral tissue and zooxanthella. No other microorganism was present. I used a microscope and micro pipette to isolate Philaster
2. Protozoans are not worms
3. Extensive testing was performed on treated systems and there were no effects on anything in the reef system except the protozoans and if overdosed fish will die. The in tank treatment affects fishes ability to have gas exchange across their gills, that is the reason.

Thanks - this explains part of it. BTW I think its fascinating work - so dont take my comments as insulting.

1. IMO Using a microscope is not enough. Especially not the microscope you were using at least in some of the videos. Yes - you can 'see bacteria' under a microscope when they are in a solution - you cannot see bacteria attached to a hard piece of coral (unless perhaps its an electron microscope).
2. Obviously protozoans are not worms - but I believe I read in the product literature that this product also affects flatworms, etc - are we sure it doesnt affect others as well?
3. So you're contradicting the statement from your webpage that: Prime Coral Stop RTN is a complete coral dip used to treat common coral parasites. It is the only treatment effective against RTN, STN, and Coral Bleaching parasites; acropora eating flatworms, montipora eating nudibranchs, polyclad worms, black bugs, common flatworms, and eggs. PS I know the products are 'different' - I just didnt know they were 'that different'. PPS - since ciliates can also be brought in on CUC - are they also safe to dip?

Can you answer these questions?

1. How are you sure that you have a 'pure culture' of Philaster lucinda? How was that documented? DNA analysis or visually (which would seem to be quite hard)
2. Much of the research (published) suggests that at best the ciliates are a secondary infection - feeding on damaged coral and that when THEY looked at samples using tissue sections bacteria of many types was always present - what's your response?
3. When you did your experiment where you exposed the coral to Philaster (the healthy coral) - how did you determine the concentration of Philaster you added to each container. I mean in enough numbers almost anything will be killed but that doesnt mean those concentrations would ever be present in the wild or in a tank.
4. Since you had sources of coral free of Philaster (how did you determine that - DNA analysis of samples, etc). Did you ever try to induce RTN with rapid changes in tank parameters (alkalinity, temp, etc). The problem I see with one part of the logic is that if these things didn't play a role in RTN, why do so many people describe problems with RTN after such an event?

 

[sde1500]

Please tell me what is the high road in your opinion?

Stop being so dismissive and insulting. You suggest someone is a flat earther because they question your conclusion? How is that in ANY way scientific or productive? Others have asked questions and provided their qualifications for asking, and you respond by assuming they are taking something personally. Sure I tossed out a silly response, but the way you are addressing many here is quite insulting.

You want to advance this hobby, you need to interact with the people in it. Thats us. This hobby is absolutely rife with "snake oil" cure alls that cure nothing and just make people money. You want to stand out from that crowd? Don't respond as dismissively as you have been. I can go online and find a dozen "reef safe ich cures" that many buy, but many more know don't work. Snake oil. Now there is this, an RTN and STN cure, stating that this is the ONLY cause of this problem and the ONLY cure for it as well. Its a real big claim. You also claim you are a scientist, then you should know that research findings will be scrutinized. But we all here can see how little you stand for ANY scrutiny. I'm sure everyone here would love it if this truly were a means of preventing all R/STN. It would be a huge advancement. But if you can't even deal with the slightest bit of skepticism and immediately dismiss/insult anyone who doesn't immediately believe you, it will likely take much longer for your findings to advance anywhere.

Is this research published? I didn't see a link. Only links I saw were to your commercial website. That also leaves a feel of this being not much more than a marketing ploy. And the "I don't need more money" comment is just silly. Many in business or other areas don't "need" more money. But they start a new business, take a newer higher paying job, sell a product anyways. Bezos doesn't "need" more money, but that won't stop him from making Amazon competitive in more areas and making more money.

 

[Prime Coral]

And Im a microbiologist and immunologist. I read your website - including the part on Kochs postulates yesterday. I agree that you SAID you did it - but you didn't describe your methods as to how you did it i.e. how were you sure you had a pure 'culture' of Philaster. Did you pre-treat the corals you were trying to infect with antibiotics (i.e. to remove bacteria), etc etc etc. You did not give methods that I saw.

As a scientist - you of course realize that you have not 'proven' what you're saying. You have not published a peer reviewed article. You don't reference (that I saw) any of the references you used to create your methods for getting pure cultures of Philaster - and how you were certain only Philaster was there.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - you may be right, you may be partly right or not. But - and I understand why you might be a bit defensive - the way to sell a new product is to perhaps be a bit more friendly. At 90$ for 3 ounces (not quite sure how long each would last) - it seems expensive without more clear documentation.

BTW - why are the products not 'fish safe'....

Thank you for your response. As a fellow scientist you know scientific facts don’t require “peer reviewed publication in a scientific journal”. Unfortunately the peer review publish process has become highly unreliable

I respect your request for describing methods. And I suggest you attempt to run your own and validate the results or not. You will find I am correct.