Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

[Reefahholic]

I had numerous colonies STN/RTN in my tank over a year ago. At the same time my alkalinity, nitrates, and phosphates were all over the place. Once I got them under control the STN/RTN stopped. I have a colonies halfway gone that survived. Are these protozoans you mentioned sensitive to the parameters of the tank? Interesting hypothesis, I wish it was true, but I find it difficult to believe that they are the only reason for RTN.

I think that when the parameters/problems are corrected the coral can somehow fight off the parasites/infection.

Maybe the Philaster don’t sense the corals weakness anymore and it turns them off or maybe the coral gets its protective slime coat back which slows or stops the infection. Just thoughts!

 

[Jose Mayo]

Here's some threads I started sometime ago related to this:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacteria-relationship-with-coral.336714/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/corals-bacteria-protozoas-oh-my.474413/

Exactly, my friend ... the subject is not new, and it is fascinating, so it is not surprising that it is, at least superficially, in the knowledge of many of us aquarists. Want to deliver a product that is said to be a solution to this problem (which afflicts many) without being questioned ... that's a big problem!

Regards

 

[marlinmon]

I think that when the parameters/problems are corrected the coral can somehow fight off the parasites.

Maybe the Philaster don’t sense the corals weakness anymore and it turns them off or maybe the coral gets its protective slime coat back which slows or stops the infection. Just thoughts!

Well I guess we can all at least agree that we need a lot more research in this area

 

[Flippers4pups]

As already speculated and from what I’ve read in white papers regarding RTN, environmental conditions and damage trigger adverse conditions, advise conditions effect the bacteria’s surrounding the coral and tissue. This is where it’s iffy, the corals tissue is comprised allowing the bad bacteria to attack the tissue and then protozoans step in and finish the job.

That’s been my take of all the reading I’ve done so far.

 

[Reefahholic]

Well I guess we can all at least agree that we need a lot more research in this area

No doubt.

 

[AngryOwl]

And Im a microbiologist and immunologist. I read your website - including the part on Kochs postulates yesterday. I agree that you SAID you did it - but you didn't describe your methods as to how you did it i.e. how were you sure you had a pure 'culture' of Philaster. Did you pre-treat the corals you were trying to infect with antibiotics (i.e. to remove bacteria), etc etc etc. You did not give methods that I saw.

As a scientist - you of course realize that you have not 'proven' what you're saying. You have not published a peer reviewed article. You don't reference (that I saw) any of the references you used to create your methods for getting pure cultures of Philaster - and how you were certain only Philaster was there.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - you may be right, you may be partly right or not. But - and I understand why you might be a bit defensive - the way to sell a new product is to perhaps be a bit more friendly. At 90$ for 3 ounces (not quite sure how long each would last) - it seems expensive without more clear documentation.

BTW - why are the products not 'fish safe'....

This post is pretty much all you need to read in this thread. It was never replied to directly and was dismissed with insults. No sense in continuing the conversation about this guy and his product until the methods, data, and evidences can be documented. Dr. says he doesn't want to waste his time responding individually to all the 'haters' with his proof.... but it seems to me it would have been both beneficial and convenient if he were to have the correct documentation so he could simply point everyone in the right direction.

The site showing the 'evidence' is a joke and doesn't prove anything.

I'm also discouraged that R2R has not stepped in and dealt a warning to the sponsor himself and a few other members here for their insults and personal attacks. Maybe they did behind the scenes though... I hope so.

 

[Reefahholic]

As already speculated and from what I’ve read in white papers regarding RTN, environmental conditions and damage trigger adverse conditions, advise conditions effect the bacteria’s surrounding the coral and tissue. This is where it’s iffy, the corals tissue is comprised allowing the bad bacteria to attack the tissue and then protozoans step in and finish the job.

That’s been my take of all the reading I’ve done so far.

So we have two possible culprits. Bacteria which we have no microscopic evidence for, or Philaster parasites which we do have multiple microscopic videos of them eating coral with stomachs full of zooxanthellae.

Can somebody culture some bacteria and get some video of them RTNing a coral. Then use Koch's postulates to prove they are the causation.

If you can do that, then I’ll be persuaded. If not, I’m sticking to the video evidence that we currently have and culture’s that the Doctor has performed. I know he’s done them because he’s found their sensitivity which anybody can see on video. I don’t see a reason for him to lie or be money hungry.

 

[Jose Mayo]

As already speculated and from what I’ve read in white papers regarding RTN, environmental conditions and damage trigger adverse conditions, advise conditions effect the bacteria’s surrounding the coral and tissue. This is where it’s iffy, the corals tissue is comprised allowing the bad bacteria to attack the tissue and then protozoans step in and finish the job.

That’s been my take of all the reading I’ve done so far.

Yes, in coastal photic zones where coral reefs develop, environmental conditions are spectacularly stable compared to an aquarium, the magnitude of the volumes involved, and the constancy of physical and chemical parameters. So much so, that RTN is an exclusive disease of corals in captivity; it does not exist in the natural environment. In nature, what we have is STN, similar in all physical, chemical and biological aspects to RTN, but of much slower development and sometimes spontaneously reversible under natural conditions.

There's a lot to study ...

Regards

 

[naecO rM]

I always thought that RTN is infectionof aquarium as a flu, that comes from my experience. To improve that I did bath for spss with iodine. Sometimes it hepl, some times not.

Now for me it's confirmed.

 

[Reefahholic]

Yes, in coastal photic zones where coral reefs develop, environmental conditions are spectacularly stable compared to an aquarium, the magnitude of the volumes involved, and the constancy of physical and chemical parameters. So much so, that RTN is an exclusive disease of corals in captivity; it does not exist in the natural environment. In nature, what we have is STN, similar in all physical, chemical and biological aspects to RTN, but of much slower development and sometimes spontaneously reversible under natural conditions.

There's a lot to study ...

Regards

See...this is good stuff. Let’s get into the meat and potato’s, because all the other talk isn’t getting us anywhere.

 

[Scott Campbell]

As already speculated and from what I’ve read in white papers regarding RTN, environmental conditions and damage trigger adverse conditions, advise conditions effect the bacteria’s surrounding the coral and tissue. This is where it’s iffy, the corals tissue is comprised allowing the bad bacteria to attack the tissue and then protozoans step in and finish the job.

That’s been my take of all the reading I’ve done so far.

This would be my take as well. One thought that occurs to me - what if the protozoans actually limit the full scope of bacterial damage by quickly removing diseased tissue? Thus limiting the fuel for the bacterial infection. If that is the case - wiping out the clean-up crew (the Philaster ciliates) might be the absolutely wrong approach.

 

[Jose Mayo]

See...this is good stuff. Let’s get into the meat and potato’s, because all the other talk isn’t getting us anywhere.

Yes! Let's get to the point ...
What we have so far is called nothing! Mere statement without credible source and no demonstration of results, but ... yet an affirmation.
For my part, what I will do is follow the reports of those who try the product and, if in practice the results are consistent, I will return to present my apologies and congratulations.

Best Regards

 

[Reefahholic]

Yes! Let's get to the point ...
What we have so far is called nothing! Mere statement without credible source and no demonstration of results, but ... yet an affirmation.
For my part, what I will do is follow the reports of those who try the product and, if in practice the results are consistent, I will return to present my apologies and congratulations.

Best Regards

Right on brother! I have product coming and will be testing on video very soon.

I also have some coral/water samples shipping to me which I will get video of as well.

 

[MnFish1]

Please stop trying to mislead people

Michael Sweet was very specific with the word he chose “associated with” for a reason. He is a real scientist and knows he cannot make the jump from “associated with” to “causes” because he lacks the evidence. Only I have performed the necessary experiments to prove a causal relationship between protozoan Philaster and coral tissue necrosis.

I wasn’t trying to mislead anyone. I said there is no published research that states that these ciliates cause rtn. I quoted that fact from a couple papers including the data from inside one of them. In your defense I bolded one section suggesting they may play a bigger role than thought

 

[MnFish1]

It may be. I just haven’t seen anything that says a bacterial infection is 100% the cause or any video of it eating coral.

On the other hand, I have seen video of the Philaster eating coral and everybody can see those in this thread.

For me it’s not a matter of who’s right or wrong. It’s more about where the evidence leads me personally, because I want to end all the issues I’ve had over the years. Sure would be nice!

Did you read the quoted papers. The ones where they killed the ciliates but rtn continued? What more evidence do you need that at a minimum it’s multifactorial?

 

[MnFish1]

Uronema marinum
Uronema marinum is a free-living rather than obligate parasite as it feeds on live food, dead tissue and bacteria. However, this parasite is opportunistic and, it is often found on recently captured, transported, or otherwise weakened hosts. Poor conditions and stress are believed to be factors as they negatively impact the host’s immune system. Uronema marinum infects fish within a wide temperature and salinity range and invades the internal organs in advanced stages.

Reproduction
Reproduction is by fission.

Where is this from?

 

[Scott Campbell]

Uronema marinum
Uronema marinum is a free-living rather than obligate parasite as it feeds on live food, dead tissue and bacteria. However, this parasite is opportunistic and, it is often found on recently captured, transported, or otherwise weakened hosts. Poor conditions and stress are believed to be factors as they negatively impact the host’s immune system. Uronema marinum infects fish within a wide temperature and salinity range and invades the internal organs in advanced stages.

Reproduction
Reproduction is by fission.

Any links to literature about the Philaster ciliate being parasitic?

 

[Flippers4pups]

This post is pretty much all you need to read in this thread. It was never replied to directly and was dismissed with insults. No sense in continuing the conversation about this guy and his product until the methods, data, and evidences can be documented. Dr. says he doesn't want to waste his time responding individually to all the 'haters' with his proof.... but it seems to me it would have been both beneficial and convenient if he were to have the correct documentation so he could simply point everyone in the right direction.

The site showing the 'evidence' is a joke and doesn't prove anything.

I'm also discouraged that R2R has not stepped in and dealt a warning to the sponsor himself and a few other members here for their insults and personal attacks. Maybe they did behind the scenes though... I hope so.

I can’t speak for the moderation team, but I know the thread has been monitored. Let’s keep it civil and open minded going forward. It’s been a good discussion and I’m learning from the information provided. Thanks to all that have contributed positively!

 

[sde1500]

See...this is good stuff. Let’s get into the meat and potato’s, because all the other talk isn’t getting us anywhere.

That statement also massively contradicts a video of the Drs that’s states these Philaster as THE cause for the suffering of reefs world wide. Another claim I have some serious issues with.

 

[MnFish1]

Just to mention, it was me who started this topic in R2R and I was the one who brought the topic to the present discussion, in post # 120.

Regards

YEs - this was from a thread you posted at least a year or more ago. Thanks - I went and read the original paper. I thought the picture was worth a thousand words.