Potassium nitrate (Spectracide stump remover) dosing steps

[Chris Ferrell]

Great thread. This looks exactly what I need.

My setup is close to jumpinglittlechloe. Zeo, vertex skimmer, 2 kessile aw360we, light bio load(2clowns and pygmy angel) in a 30 gallon setup. Carbon dosing with zeostart. Always showing 0 no3, no4 is usually 0.0-.02. I was dealing with KH issues when it spiked up to 11. Combined with ultra low no3, it wasn't very pretty. I was able to slowly let KH drop and I'm pretty steady at 7.5 now for the last month.

I have started to feed more but my no3 is still zero. I recently changed my skimmer to cycle off for 3hrs after the lights go off and feed some CV then. Still hardly any polyp extension and low color to pale color except for my Bali slimmer. Im gonna run this way for another week or so and see if there is improvement. I have some new frags as well I'm going to monitor closely. If I start seeing negative signs I will start dosing potassium nitrate.

I'm glad I read this thread and the one Russ started. Very helpful even without starting any dosing. It makes you think about your own setup and what you need to see improvement.

Mine is almost the same too and its funny I have a Bali slimmer too and that's the only thing that hasn't lost color, seems like the green acros in my tank are fine but my reds, purple and blues are fading. I have a red cap that looks a pretty pink. Just started dosing yesterday so hopes this turns things around. All other parameters are fine.

 

[jumplittlechloe]

I am in the same situation. Slimer looks good and other SPS are pale.

 

[Fishguy597]

Any updates from anyone? When you guys are running your skimmer I assume you are going for dry skimate?
What is the purpose of running high alk when you have higher no3?

 

[twilliard]

No3 and po4 go hand in hand. You can push growth with higher alkalinity numbers.
Running a skimmer dry allows for higher DOC'S which contribute to no3 and po4

 

[Diesel]

Any updates from anyone? When you guys are running your skimmer I assume you are going for dry skimate?
What is the purpose of running high alk when you have higher no3?

Great question my friend.

 

[Diesel]

No3 and po4 go hand in hand. You can push growth with higher alkalinity numbers.
Running a skimmer dry allows for higher DOC'S which contribute to no3 and po4

Todd, when I come home I'll post something that I think goes totally against this but explained it makes sense.
Like to have your input on this.
Stay tuned, not home yet.

 

[Russ265]

so imagine. you want to grow your hand.

you chuck all this alk and calcium at it and the skeleton forms. unfortunately the meat is lacking. prone to infection, where the skin meets the bone bad stuff happens.

sure. in the beginning you have a larger hand coming to fruition but gang green sets in.

same as a coral. without the no3 and po4 to give the skeleton it's meat and potatoes, you are cruising for an rtn/stn event.

of course i am over-simplifying.

corals are two animals afterall...

 

[Diesel]

Russ, you hang out to till I get home tonight.
It blew my mind but we get it figured out.

 

[Chris Ferrell]

What do you guys consider high alk? Been trying to keep mine steady about 9 is that too high. I started dosing nitrates and my sps took off but worried a out what you just mentioned.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Any updates from anyone? When you guys are running your skimmer I assume you are going for dry skimate?
What is the purpose of running high alk when you have higher no3?

If you have high alk and low nutrients, folks get burnt tips on some SPS. One hypothesis is that the skeleton grows faster than the tissue can keep up, and the tissue gets thin and prone to damage by light and other things.

So if you want good color, folks aim for lower nutrients and lower alk. If you want the higher growth rate that high alk provides, you probably need somewhat higher nutrients and may have to accept some browning from the extra zoox that the nutrients spurred.

 

[Russ265]

If you have high alk and low nutrients, folks get burnt tips on some SPS. One hypothesis is that the skeleton grows faster than the tissue can keep up, and the tissue gets thin and prone to damage by light and other things.

So if you want good color, folks aim for lower nutrients and lower alk. If you want the higher growth rate that high alk provides, you probably need somewhat higher nutrients and may have to accept some browning from the extra zoox that the nutrients spurred.

he almost gets it. but like the writeups he bases his peer's research on.... not quite there.

oh yeah. and look at the people with skimmers getting destroyed in the acro grow-off competition.

anyway. its hard to do a writeup on it because of it's complexity. but we can follow some simple rules of thumb to prevent user error.

 

[Russ265]

What do you guys consider high alk? Been trying to keep mine steady about 9 is that too high. I started dosing nitrates and my sps took off but worried a out what you just mentioned.

idc what any kids say here.

stay above 3-5 no3 and .02-.04 po4 and if your light is strong (3-600 par), you can run 11 alk no issues.

same system. no nutrients. - dead sps

-big disclaimer

nitrate and phosphate arent the only sauce needed. yeah youll keep corals alive but there is something else that fish produce that get corals in their happy spot.

could be ammonium(urea) or whatever. but just pure nitrate and phosphate dont solve the whole puzzle.

 

[Russ265]

Russ, you hang out to till I get home tonight.
It blew my mind but we get it figured out.

make sure to tag me when you post

 

[Diesel]

@Russ265 @twilliard

maintaining measurable nutrient levels is important for bacterial driven systems, where risk of N or P limiting is high. Limit C and you reduce coral stress from bacteria competition and don't need to worry about No3 or Po4, unless they continually accumulate.

I call a bacterial driven system, one where emphasis is placed on processing nutrients via bacterial promotion. Bio Pellets, liquid Carbon dosing, which includes Zeovit method and many of the other commercial methods.
These system dose C (carbon) to prevent it being the limiting factor for bacteria to grow and populate. So that more bacteria are grown to reduce NO3 and PO4. Bacteria are very efficient, and will continue to multiply while ever there is food, in this case NO3 PO4 and C. and will continue till one element becomes limiting. If C is limiting, there is no problem, but if P or N becomes limiting, it will also become limiting for coral, meaning they can't grow. I also believe bacteria may draw from N and P from coral (different debate). Long story short. While carbon dosing to reduce nutrients, you juggle a fine line that is not all that stable and easily pushed too far, therefor it is safer to ensure you maintain a margin of some measurable nutrients.

Here's the thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diving-into-sps.244739/page-2#post-2873033

I did try to find some info on this but it was a dead end.
Hopping one of you guys or both shine a light on this.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

@Russ265 @twilliard





Here's the thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diving-into-sps.244739/page-2#post-2873033

I did try to find some info on this but it was a dead end.
Hopping one of you guys or both shine a light on this.

What are you trying to understand? I agree with the quote you posted.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

he almost gets it. but like the writeups he bases his peer's research on.... not quite there.

Are you referring to me?

 

[Russ265]

@Russ265 @twilliard





Here's the thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/diving-into-sps.244739/page-2#post-2873033

I did try to find some info on this but it was a dead end.
Hopping one of you guys or both shine a light on this.

anyone who uses bacteria to control their nutrient levels has no3/po4. otherwise, why would they throw bottles of magic pills in their tank? they have a purpose.

if i had an overstocked 100 gallon tank, obviously waterchanges, or carbon, or whatever forms of nutrient export would be ideal.

take that same system, remove all livestock, do a 100% wc and see how long a coral will live.

one has a deficit of nitrate production, the other a surplus.

i dont think carbon adds to the success. i dosed carbon and didnt get any results when i accidently hit 12ppm my first time.

i was talking about something else with the added "stuff".

my experience:

all things the same: i removed a yellow tang
then added: a foxface, carpenter wrasse, copperband butterfly, powder blue tang to the system.

within 6 weeks things colored up beyond the typical nitrate and phosphate dosing

now we can say the direct photosynthesis of ammonium was at play, or some other building block in the chain of life down the line proliferated.

what it is? whos to know. i dont have to dose phosphate and nitrate anymore (naturally) and it stays stable at around 3ppm no3 / .02 po4.
i do a very lax 20% wc a month due to sand cleaning.

prior to the change mentioned above: if i ever forgot to dose nitrate, id lose a sensitive sps or it would bleach to the point of (almost) no return.

before i dosed at all, it was guaranteed id lose sps. lps and softies were more tolerant but they would eventually pale out as well

 

[Diesel]

anyone who uses bacteria to control their nutrient levels has no3/po4. otherwise, why would they throw bottles of magic pills in their tank? they have a purpose.

if i had an overstocked 100 gallon tank, obviously waterchanges, or carbon, or whatever forms of nutrient export would be ideal.

take that same system, remove all livestock, do a 100% wc and see how long a coral will live.

one has a deficit of nitrate production, the other a surplus.

i dont think carbon adds to the success. i dosed carbon and didnt get any results when i accidently hit 12ppm my first time.

i was talking about something else with the added "stuff".

my experience:

all things the same: i removed a yellow tang
then added: a foxface, carpenter wrasse, copperband butterfly, powder blue tang to the system.

within 6 weeks things colored up beyond the typical nitrate and phosphate dosing

now we can say the direct photosynthesis of ammonium was at play, or some other building block in the chain of life down the line proliferated.

what it is? whos to know. i dont have to dose phosphate and nitrate anymore (naturally) and it stays stable at around 3ppm no3 / .02 po4.
i do a very lax 20% wc a month due to sand cleaning.

prior to the change mentioned above: if i ever forgot to dose nitrate, id lose a sensitive sps or it would bleach to the point of (almost) no return.

before i dosed at all, it was guaranteed id lose sps. lps and softies were more tolerant but they would eventually pale out as well

I have done similar experiment in my frag tanks as on one point they were loaded with corals.
Went completely fishless and within a week I did see some color loss on SPS the second week was even more.
I had a 60G cube that I plumed into the frag system as I had 8 fish in there and with in 10 days color came back slowly, start dosing some extra No3 and the process did speed up even more.
As before the experiment I knew already what would happen as it makes common sense as you take a food source away that is beneficial for the corals.
That brings me back to ZEOvit system and to bring a already top atleet to his best performance, of course those are two different things but same principle, I have been there before and it does work............it's all about what kind of nutrients you need to perform the best and it's different with each individual as with corals too.

 

[Russ265]

I have done similar experiment in my frag tanks as on one point they were loaded with corals.
Went completely fishless and within a week I did see some color loss on SPS the second week was even more.
I had a 60G cube that I plumed into the frag system as I had 8 fish in there and with in 10 days color came back slowly, start dosing some extra No3 and the process did speed up even more.
As before the experiment I knew already what would happen as it makes common sense as you take a food source away that is beneficial for the corals.
That brings me back to ZEOvit system and to bring a already top atleet to his best performance, of course those are two different things but same principle, I have been there before and it does work............it's all about what kind of nutrients you need to perform the best and it's different with each individual as with corals too.

hit the nail on the head my man.

not hard to replicate it.

 

[Waterjockey]

For those that are dosing nitrates...I used to be in a hobby where I went through pounds of KNO3 weekly...the cheapest source of "food grade" potassium nitrate I found was from hydroponic stores, most sell it in a prilled form up to 20lb buckets. I had a tough time finding stump remover (here in Ontario Canada) that wasn't adulterated in some undesireable fashion. Just a suggestion for addional places to souce KNO3

Cheers!