Potters angel flashing

[Elwood Dowd]

My potters angel is flashing, sometimes very frequently. Its a young fish 2 inches maybe. Kept him at the lfs for 2 weeks after I bought him so they could get him on mysis. He is eating well still. He was qt'd when I brought him home. 14 days .3ppm copper via cupramine and 2 rounds of prazipro.

Through out the duration of treatmemt he was fine. No flashing, ich, no visible signs of any thing. After 3 days in my fish only he started flashing. However there is no sign of ich or other parasites. I'm thinking maybe its bacterial. What do I do? Move him back to qt and retreat? Move him back to qt for a round of marycin 2? I could also treat him with a antifungal, maybe fluconazol?

Fish only is 58 gallons
0 ammonia
0 nitrite
10 ppm nitrate

Other inhabitants
Valentini puffer
Serpent star
3 Mexican turbos
1 fiddler crab (until Pete the puffer decides he wants a snack)

Thank you for suggestions in advance.

 

[melypr1985]

He was qt'd when I brought him home. 14 days .3ppm copper via cupramine and 2 rounds of prazipro.

I think this is your problem. .3 ppm of cupramine is the lowest therapeutic level you can have. Are you absolutely sure it stayed there the whole 14 days and never dipped below that even once? You may want to think about pulling everybody for a full 30 day treatment with the copper levels at .5 and leave the display fallow. I know that sucks, but it would be the safest course of action. Your other option is to just live with it for a while and see what develops in the tank. Feed vitamins in the food and try to mostly feed the healthiest things you can such as frozen mysis, live black worms, clam ect.

 

[ngoodermuth]

^agreed. I would consider pulling everyone to treat in QT with at least .4-.5; .3 is too low IME...

 

[Elwood Dowd]

Thank you both for your reply! Ill go ahead and do that tonight. I set the hospital back up this morning.

A couple of questions if ypu have the time.

1. Will it be ok to put the potters back under copper this soon or should I wait a few days to give him a break.

2. Is it feasible to keep a hospital/qt running all the time? It wouldn't have fish in it most of the time.

 

[ngoodermuth]

The angel should be fine going back in copper, just raise it up over a day or two.

You can keep a QT running nonstop, but if it's not being used it's kind of a waste of time and energy maintaining it. Plus, it should be sanitized between each batch of fish anyway so it wouldn't stay cycled. But, that's up to you

 

[melypr1985]

can keep a QT running nonstop, but if it's not being used it's kind of a waste of time and energy maintaining it. Plus, it should be sanitized between each batch of fish anyway so it wouldn't stay cycled. But, that's up to you

Yup. exactly

 

[Elwood Dowd]

Well, the angel and the puffer are both in the hospital tank. Angel is zooming around like nothing ever changed. The puffer is brown and hunkered down in the corner. He was not a fan of being moved out of his home. I went ahead and blacked them out with a blanket and added a airstone to go with the PH and penguin filter.

Hospital tank was started last night with water from my reef tank. 0 ammo & nitrite. 2.5 nitrate. I did dilute salinity down to 1.019 from 1.025.

I also dosed the first half to .25 ppm copper with cupramine. Sunday morning i'll be raising it the rest of the way to .5.

 

[Elwood Dowd]

Update. Maybe I can get some help here. It is a bit of a dilemma for me.

The Valentini puffer was moved back to the DT two days ago.

The Valentini and the potters bot received .5 copper via cupramine for 3 weeks. The 3rd week I started them on Prazipro, 2 doses. The 4th week was spent with maracyn II. I performed WC's every 4 days.

The puffer is extremely happy and healthy.
The Potters Angel not so much. He has lympho, it started with a nodule on the edge of his gill and one behind the eye. The one behind the eye comes and goes. The one on the gill hasn't budged. He now has one on the other gill as well. The lympho has been visible for about a week now.

The water is clean and I am still doing 50% WC's there isn't any detectable copper. I did place activated carbon in the filter area.

HT specs:
10 gal
78 degrees
1.019 sg
0 ammonia
0 Nitraite
2 ppm Nitrate

What can I do with this little fellow? I have read everything I can find on lympho the last week but I am still not sure other than "feed him and keep the water clean"

he is eating PE mysis & calanus, SB emerald entree & blood worms, NLS thera A, and nori. He seems to be doing well. I don't know what to do though. I can't put him in the fish only DT but I don't want him to live in that dang HT any longer. I cannot start another tank. that will be 5 total and I will end up single over a 5th. Is this actually going to run its course? Is euthanasia a valid answer ( I cannot bring myself to put him in a cup of water and stick it in the freezer)?

 

[melypr1985]

If she's eating and not having issues seeing or breathing with the lympho, then I don't see any reason to euthanize her. Lympho isn't something you have to keep her in the hospital tank for. If there are no other issues, then you can put her in the display and let her settle in. That would probably go a long way to getting the lympho to go away. A longer observation period is always a good thing, but you have to follow your own instincts as well.

 

[Elwood Dowd]

Thank for the reply! I was considering that as a course of action. I can only imagine how much happier she will be in the display versus that HT. Your response gives me the confidence I need to move her. I hope this gorgeous fish can get back to being pretty again.

 

[ngoodermuth]

What were you treating for again? If you had ich or velvet in your display, you would need to be fallow (fishless) for 6 weeks for velvet to 76 days for ich. Also, unless you are transferring to another sterile QT, 3 weeks of copper would not be enough.

I just don't want to see you go through all you did just to have it pop back up again :/

 

[Elwood Dowd]

What were you treating for again? If you had ich or velvet in your display, you would need to be fallow (fishless) for 6 weeks for velvet to 76 days for ich. Also, unless you are transferring to another sterile QT, 3 weeks of copper would not be enough.

I just don't want to see you go through all you did just to have it pop back up again :/

Initially the potters was qt'ed because he was a new purchase. But a couple days after I put him in the display he was flashing. There were no signs of ich or velvet, no parasites, nothing. I used the at process i have used successfully for a long while. But we in this thread settled on .3 not being a high enough copper dose. So i pulled the angel and my puffer and re did the process to be safe. There haven't ever been signs of ich or velvet. Only the flashing and the lympho.

As to the display, I broke it down while the fish were in qt. I replaced the substrate, and LR. I used water, some live rock and 10lbs of crushed coral in a mesh bag from my reefs sump and water from my reef water changes to start the new tank. So no fallow period required. When did 3 weeks of copper become not enough

 

[ngoodermuth]

3 weeks would be enough if you are transferring to another, clean QT WITHOUT lowering the copper level first. If you are working with a single QT, the recommended treatment window is a minimum 30 days.

 

[Elwood Dowd]

If she's eating and not having issues seeing or breathing with the lympho, then I don't see any reason to euthanize her. Lympho isn't something you have to keep her in the hospital tank for. If there are no other issues, then you can put her in the display and let her settle in. That would probably go a long way to getting the lympho to go away. A longer observation period is always a good thing, but you have to follow your own instincts as well.

This was very good advice. I put him in yesterday at about 4am in the dark. By the time the lights were on, at 830am. The potters was happy as can be. The lymph is/was pretty bad. He was chasing the golden head goby around begging for cleaning. The goby didn't appreciate the harassment and went to his cave and hid. As soon as the LFS opened I went and picked up a skunk cleaner shrimp for him and they immediately decided on a friendship. The cleaner has picked most of it off at this point. The situation is looking up!

 

[4FordFamily]

I agree the tank needed to be fallow for 76 days -- nearly all new fish come with ich or velvet or both.

Good luck, you had it almost right! Keep us posted. Mel and Ngoodermuth have you taken care of it seems!

 

[Elwood Dowd]

I agree the tank needed to be fallow for 76 days -- nearly all new fish come with ich or velvet or both.

Good luck, you had it almost right! Keep us posted. Mel and Ngoodermuth have you taken care of it seems!

Hoest question here. I dont follow the 76 days fallow logic in this situation. ALL fish were moved to quarantine for 3 weeks for a second round of cupramine, prazi. The potters angel had been under cupramine previously in my qt for 4 weeks.

While all fish were in at the second time around. I removed all base and live rock, water, and substrate. The FO display was then restarted with water and LR from my reef, NEW fiji pink live sand, crushed coral I keep in a mesh bag inside of my sump for seeding new tanks. It is a completely new set up, as far as bio goes.

This was all posted when I bumped this thread. What am I missing?

 

[ngoodermuth]

Parasites can encyst on ANY hard surface. This includes coral skeletons, power heads, mag floats, snail and hermit shells, etc.

The only way to be absolutely sure you've eradicated them, is to run your system fish-less. The parasites that hatch from those cysts (100s-1000s from a single cyst) cannot complete their life cycle sans fish and will starve themselves out. But we suggest 76 days to account for the longest-known strain of ich to remain encysted, which is a 72-day life cycle. The extra few days are a cushion for error.

 

[Elwood Dowd]

Parasites can encyst on ANY hard surface. This includes coral skeletons, power heads, mag floats, snail and hermit shells, etc.

The only way to be absolutely sure you've eradicated them, is to run your system fish-less. The parasites that hatch from those cysts (100s-1000s from a single cyst) cannot complete their life cycle sans fish and will starve themselves out. But we suggest 76 days to account for the longest-known strain of ich to remain encysted, which is a 72-day life cycle. The extra few days are a cushion for error.

So fishless, substrateless, rockless, waterless, and sitting empty for days after its dry doesn't work?

 

[ngoodermuth]

So fishless, substrateless, rockless, waterless, and sitting empty for days after its dry doesn't work?

Where were the corals and cuc during? Are they still separate?

If you QT your inverts/corals separately for 76days and breakdown and sterilize your DT, sump, and all wet equipment. Then yes, in theory that might work.

 

[Elwood Dowd]

Where were the corals and cuc during? Are they still separate?

If you QT your inverts/corals separately for 76days and breakdown and sterilize your DT, sump, and all wet equipment. Then yes, in theory that might work.

Ah I see. There has been some time lapse since i started the thread. I see where the mix up is now. I stated it was a fish only with LR and base rock, no corals. The cleanup crew consisted of 3 Mexican turbos and a serpent star. They are in a 5 gallon with a sponge filter and airstone. They will be there for a long while. Possibly forever.