Precipitation event advice

[Adam1985]

Hi all,

I’m setting up my new tank. I was adjusting Ca up to target (was planning to do KH later) and dosed the wrong thing. Instead of Ca/Mg/Sr I added a large amount NaOH/Sulphate. This is Randy’s high pH 2-part. I’ll label the bottles better going forward.

pH went through the roof and the tank is milky white due to precipitation as would be expected.

My question is, will this dissolve back into solution or do I need to drain and redo.

I believe it will not go back into solution easily and I’d better drain the tank and make new water, but wanted to get your feedback too.

Fortunately no life in the tank yet aside from some live rock which I’ve moved back to the old tank while I resolve this issue. I’ll drain it if needed but it will be over a bucket of salt wasted plus all that RO/DI.

Thanks,

Adam

 

[arking_mark]

It turned into CaCO3 which is insoluble at tank pH levels.

You can just let it settle...no harm to the tank.

I recommend you use a quality salt which matches your desired parameters and not tinker. In this way, you can easily maintain stability with water changes.

Also, adjusting Ca based on our hobby grade testing isn't advised. Most tests aren't any better than +/- 20ppm. Also, as Ca is much more abundant in our tanks...it's levels aren't as important. A 21ppm drop would coincide with a 3dKH drop in Alkalinity which we can measure much more precisely.

So as long as your using a quality salt and replacing Alk/Ca based on Alk consumption...you should be in a good place.

If this is a new tank, you shouldn't need to supplement for a couple months. You may see a slight dip in Alk when Ntrates come up getting your cycle started...but will then go back up as the nitrates are consumed. You may also see Alk/Ca consumed from abiotic precipitation. This typically happens more at higher pH levels.

 

[Adam1985]

It turned into CaCO3 which is insoluble at tank pH levels.

You can just let it settle...no harm to the tank.

I recommend you use a quality salt which matches your desired parameters and not tinker. In this way, you can easily maintain stability with water changes.

Also, adjusting Ca based on our hobby grade testing isn't advised. Most tests aren't any better than +/- 20ppm. Also, as Ca is much more abundant in our tanks...it's levels aren't as important. A 21ppm drop would coincide with a 3dKH drop in Alkalinity which we can measure much more precisely.

So as long as your using a quality salt and replacing Alk/Ca based on Alk consumption...you should be in a good place.

If this is a new tank, you shouldn't need to supplement for a couple months. You may see a slight dip in Alk when Ntrates come up getting your cycle started...but will then go back up as the nitrates are consumed. You may also see Alk/Ca consumed from abiotic precipitation. This typically happens more at higher pH levels.

Thanks Mark. I actually knew this was the case but wanted confirmation somehow (or sympathy haha).

The tank is new but it’s a transfer from my very full existing tank. Actually once I move the contents over I was planning to maintain the dosing at the same levels as the existing tank, and then adjust up or down based on measured consumption.

You think it’s best to not dose at all after the transfer?

As for the salt, you’re right. I’m just hesitant to change. Have been using TM Pro Reef for 16 years and always have added buffer to get KH up and later Ca. Bit tired of the tinkering though.

 

[arking_mark]

Thanks Mark. I actually knew this was the case but wanted confirmation somehow (or sympathy haha).

The tank is new but it’s a transfer from my very full existing tank. Actually once I move the contents over I was planning to maintain the dosing at the same levels as the existing tank, and then adjust up or down based on measured consumption.

You think it’s best to not dose at all after the transfer?

As for the salt, you’re right. I’m just hesitant to change. Have been using TM Pro Reef for 16 years and always have added buffer to get KH up and later Ca. Bit tired of the tinkering though.

I use TM pro as is.

If it's a transfer...you probably want to match existing parameters to maintain stability. If you want to adjust those parameters then do it with normal water changes over time.

 

[Adam1985]

Thanks Mark. Maybe I’ll also start using as is; how’s your growth using TM Pro Reef with no KH adjustment?

You’re point about matching parameters for the transfer; you hit the hammer on the head as I was trying to get KH up to match the existing tank. I was aiming to get from 7.5 after mixing to 9.5-10 (current tank running slightly under 10; 9.8 dKH on last measurement. Now my new tank is fubar.

Couple of pics taken just now, now about 6 hours post mistake. Still a ton of CaCO3 in suspension. The roller filter seems to be pulling it out as it’s advancing new material at least once per minute. But it’s hard to tell how much is being pulled out.

So could you (and others are very welcome) comment on these questions?

1. You for sure would or would not drain and make new water? Trace should still all be fine?
2. How long do you think it’ll take for it to clear?
3. Do you know of any saltwater flocculants to speed up the removal?


Thanks Mark and all.

Adam

 

[Adam1985]

Thanks Mark. Maybe I’ll also start using as is; how’s your growth using TM Pro Reef with no KH adjustment?

You’re point about matching parameters for the transfer; you hit the hammer on the head as I was trying to get KH up to match the existing tank. I was aiming to get from 7.5 after mixing to 9.5-10 (current tank running slightly under 10; 9.8 dKH on last measurement. Now my new tank is fubar.

Couple of pics taken just now, now about 6 hours post mistake. Still a ton of CaCO3 in suspension. The roller filter seems to be pulling it out as it’s advancing new material at least once per minute. But it’s hard to tell how much is being pulled out.

So could you (and others are very welcome) comment on these questions?

1. You for sure would or would not drain and make new water? Trace should still all be fine?
2. How long do you think it’ll take for it to clear?
3. Do you know of any saltwater flocculants to speed up the removal?


Thanks Mark and all.

Adam

 

[arking_mark]

Thanks Mark. Maybe I’ll also start using as is; how’s your growth using TM Pro Reef with no KH adjustment?

You’re point about matching parameters for the transfer; you hit the hammer on the head as I was trying to get KH up to match the existing tank. I was aiming to get from 7.5 after mixing to 9.5-10 (current tank running slightly under 10; 9.8 dKH on last measurement. Now my new tank is fubar.

Couple of pics taken just now, now about 6 hours post mistake. Still a ton of CaCO3 in suspension. The roller filter seems to be pulling it out as it’s advancing new material at least once per minute. But it’s hard to tell how much is being pulled out.

So could you (and others are very welcome) comment on these questions?

1. You for sure would or would not drain and make new water? Trace should still all be fine?
2. How long do you think it’ll take for it to clear?
3. Do you know of any saltwater flocculants to speed up the removal?


Thanks Mark and all.

Adam

Personally, if the tank was small enough, I'd just replace the water. Otherwise, I'd wait till it clears (it shouldn't take more than a couple days) then adjust the parameters. If Ca was in a good ballpark (>350) I'd just adjust Alk to match incoming tank parameters. CaCO3 is used as a flocculent...so you're tank should be crystal clear when it settles.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Treat it like a limewater overdose, except calcium will have dropped too:

What is that Precipitate in My Reef Aquarium? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Precipitates from Overdosing Limewater
When limewater is substantially overdosed, the transient precipitation of magnesium hydroxide from normal use may not be the only precipitate that forms. If the pH becomes elevated and stays that way long enough, calcium carbonate can precipitate throughout the water column. In such situations, the entire aquarium can become very cloudy, looking almost like skim milk (Figures 9 and 10). Such precipitation events have the beneficial effect of lowering the pH and alkalinity that were raised by the overdose, limiting the ongoing damage that takes place. In many cases, there is no apparent harm after a day or two, but in a few rare cases, when the overdose was especially extensive, a tank crash can occur, killing many organisms.

The following important points should help in dealing with a limewater overdose:

1. Don't panic! These overdoses do not usually cause a tank to crash.

2. The primary concern is pH. If the pH is 8.6 or lower, you need not do anything. If the pH is above 8.6, then reducing the pH is the priority. Direct addition of vinegar or soda water is a good way to accomplish this goal. Either one mL of distilled white vinegar, or six mL of soda water, per gallon of tank water will give an initial pH drop of about 0.3 pH units. Add either to a high flow area that is away from organisms (e.g., a sump).

3. Do not bother to measure calcium or alkalinity while the tank is cloudy. The solid calcium carbonate particles will dissolve in an alkalinity test, and all of the carbonate in them will be counted as if it were in solution and part of "alkalinity." The same may happen to some extent with calcium tests. Wait until the water clears, and at that point, alkalinity is more likely to be low than high. Calcium will likely be mostly unchanged.

4. The particles themselves will typically settle out and disappear from view over a period of 1-4 days. They do not appear to cause long term detrimental effects to tank organisms.

5. Water changes are not necessarily beneficial or needed in response to a limewater overdose.

 

[Adam1985]

Thank you guys. Ended up taking a week of cleaning and filtering to clear most of the precipitate out. One of the larger messes I’ve made. New system is around 200 g, so not a piece of cake to replace the water.

 

[Saltyanimals]

I think this is happening to me. In a mini panic mode right now, but I've taken a deep breath after researching and landing on this post.

I dose NaOH as part of a kalk alternative. Same part of Randy's 2 part NaOH referenced here. I had a doser problem where the line got disconnected for an unknown number of days. I discovered it this morning after investigating a big alk drop and reconnected the tube. With the line being empty, I decided that I need to prime the line and manually kick off a 37ml dose expecting it to be mostly priming air and eventually the NaOH solution.

Scary part: I watched slurry of white stuff come out of the tube and quickly injected into the pump and tank. It literally looked like it was snowing in my tank. My blood pressure is a bit lower now I think after finding this discussion. I'm hoping (praying) that the white stuff is precipated CaCO3. It's still everywhere landing on all coral and of course fish thinking it's food. I see the fish eat and split it out. Snow is still everywhere as this happened in the last 10 mins.

I'm hoping this is not a crashing tank and it really is non-lethal CaCO3. My pH immediately went from 7.9 to 8.2. Flattening out now around the 8.2. Did I experience CaCO3 precipitation which is non lethal. Or should I go ahead and jump in my car now and drive to the liquor store for some very expensive Bourbon to drink my away my sorrow tonight?

 

[Dennis Cartier]

Yes, the white stuff will be precipitated CaCO3. I would let it settle and then tomorrow, test to see where your alk and calcium are.

You may want to give it a day or 2 before you try to raise them just to avoid triggering another event.

 

[Saltyanimals]

Yes, the white stuff will be precipitated CaCO3. I would let it settle and then tomorrow, test to see where your alk and calcium are.

You may want to give it a day or 2 before you try to raise them just to avoid triggering another event.

thank you. Tank did clear up after a couple hours and no clear lost of life yet. pH has started to decline fairly fast again as the tank gets back to its normal pH range state. I let about 8 hours pass before testing just to see where my alk is before I head off to bed. It barely jumped 0.2 dKH since this morning after the CaCO3 blizzard. I expected some alk jump but that nominal amount could simply be the NaOH doser running normally again as I didn’t see any spike.

Since there was no alk rise, I went ahead and dosed 36ml which is the equivalent of a full day running NaOH. I estimate this to be less than a 1 dKH but I won’t test until tomorrow morning. I did immediately see a 0.2 pH spike to 8.3 with this adjustment. The spike stayed within safe pH range so not worried about that.

Could the white slurry be something else since I didn’t see an alk spike and what caused liquid NaOH to precipitate like that sitting stagnant inside the line before I primed it out?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Could the white slurry be something else since I didn’t see an alk spike and what caused liquid NaOH to precipitate like that sitting stagnant inside the line before I primed it out?

You are asking about a line delivering NaOH in water to the tank, sat still for a while, then collected deposits?

Any chance tank water backed up into it?

Any chance it had residual calcium from a previous use?

What material is the tubing?

 

[Saltyanimals]

You are asking about a line delivering NaOH in water to the tank, sat still for a while, then collected deposits?

Any chance tank water backed up into it?

Any chance it had residual calcium from a previous use?

What material is the tubing?

Hi Randy,

Yes the line (silicon) that was delivering the NaOH solution from doser to the tank. That line is elevated well above the return pump so unlikely any water could have siphoned back into it. The line was new when I installed it so also unlikely had residual material in it. It simply became disconnected while serving the NaOH which is why the puzzle.

I would describe the material as a white ooze as it came out of the line from priming. It was solid enough that it maintained the tubular shape as it exited the tube. Being right above the return pump, it quickly dispersed throughout the tank as the snow I described. I observed the material as it fell on coral which didn't cause any immediate reaction from the coral so didn't appear to burn them. Fish ate and spat out. No loses at this point 24 hours after the event and again no elevated Alk rise as I find myself manually dosing the NaOH again to get my alk back up. Only observable impact was the immediate 0.3 pH rise from the snow.

 

[Saltyanimals]

I've continued to manually adjust my alk back to my normal baseline after this event. No Alk impact from the mystery material. Any theories on what it could be? The CaCO3 was plausible, but I don't have enough chemistry knowledge to know if that precipitation/conversion is even possible from NaOH. Magnesium conversion ?

 

[Dennis Cartier]

If NaOH (Sodium Hydroxide) gets exposed to CO2, will it change into sodium bicarbonate? If so the precipitate would be baking soda falling out of solution? Just a guess, Randy could say if this is even possible. It's the only thing I can think of.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Did you use the standard recipe concentration of sodium hydroxide?

If CO2 entered, and it as the standard recipe, it could be converted to sodium carbonate and still be fully soluble. If so much CO2 entered it became bicarbonate, that could precipitate, but it would take a huge amount to do that.

 

[Saltyanimals]

It is currently at the standard recipe, however the container previously stored a 3x concentration when I was experimenting with that last batch. That was over a month and 1000ml ago so not sure if any 3x residual was anywhere in the lines or container.

Re: CO2. Not sure as I'm not actively doing anything there intentionally. I'm not trying to breath into the tube or somehow injecting my Co2 tank into it. The co2 tank driving the CaRX is 5 ft away.

If it did convert to sodium carbonate (soda ash) then I would have expected it to raise my alk. A good amount came out and no spike in Alk and I didn't see anything out of the ordinary in the return pump chamber. It appears to have immediately sucked into the pump and distributed which means it either redissolved or mechanically filtered out. The snow eventually disappeared after a couple hours so I assume dissolved. Again no water parameter change.

No impact seen to the tank yet. Just more of solving a mystery and learning a bit of chemistry along the way.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It is currently at the standard recipe, however the container previously stored a 3x concentration when I was experimenting with that last batch. That was over a month and 1000ml ago so not sure if any 3x residual was anywhere in the lines or container.

Re: CO2. Not sure as I'm not actively doing anything there intentionally. I'm not trying to breath into the tube or somehow injecting my Co2 tank into it. The co2 tank driving the CaRX is 5 ft away.

If it did convert to sodium carbonate (soda ash) then I would have expected it to raise my alk. A good amount came out and no spike in Alk and I didn't see anything out of the ordinary in the return pump chamber. It appears to have immediately sucked into the pump and distributed which means it either redissolved or mechanically filtered out. The snow eventually disappeared after a couple hours so I assume dissolved. Again no water parameter change.

No impact seen to the tank yet. Just more of solving a mystery and learning a bit of chemistry along the way.

Sodium carbonate should not precipitate at the normal recipe concentration, regardless of CO2 entry. Sodium bicarbonate might, but that just seems too much CO2 needed, unless the tubing was open to the air.

 

[Saltyanimals]

Matter of fact the line from dose container to doser pump was the one that got disconnected. Which means the running doser pump sucked open air every time it ran. I wouldn’t expect that open air in my apex doser cabinet to have any more Co2 than ambient room air.

So my NaOH changed to sodium bicarbonate after sucking in air?