Preparing microbacter 7

[ReefKeeperElite]

Just a little commentary on how these two choices do different things.

If the MB7 is working for what you want it to, it's a fine plan, but adding bacteria and adding organic carbon are not identical processes. Added bacteria can only function and potentially reduce nutrients if there is an excess of organic carbon already present in the water. It could never work to make a large drop in nitrate, for example, because organic carbon will run out, while adding organic carbon can drop nitrate from any level.

I used to run 16ml Nopox per day for my 60+ nitrates, but no MB7 at all. The nitrates got down to 45, but my coral started to recede and fade away, so I gradually dropped the Nopox dose to 4ml per day, and they recovered.

My alk and calcium, and phosphates stayed consistent.
Alk at 9, ca at 450, and blinking 200 on my hanna phosphorus checker.

I believe a low bacteria population could have been the root cause, since others have said they run Nopox at high levels, like 24ml per day, and have great results.

So I started dosing MB7, but so far have not had much drop in nitrates (from 61 to 57), after dosing 40ml per day in my 200g tank for 3 weeks. So now I'm thinking, maybe the bacteria need more than just 4ml Nopox per day. Does this make sense to you?

Also, when I had been dosing 16ml of Nopox, but not enough bacteria to consume it, could that be a cause of the coral issues, since all this carbon source is in the tank, but no bacteria to eat it?

I'd like to increase the Nopox dose, but am afraid of the coral issues I had before. But if that could have been due to lack of bacteria, which I have hopefully corrected with MB7 dosing, maybe I would have better luck at a higher Nopox dose?

 

[gbroadbridge]

I used to run 16ml Nopox per day for my 60+ nitrates, but no MB7 at all. The nitrates got down to 45, but my coral started to recede and fade away, so I gradually dropped the Nopox dose to 4ml per day, and they recovered.

My alk and calcium, and phosphates stayed consistent.
Alk at 9, ca at 450, and blinking 200 on my hanna phosphorus checker.

I believe a low bacteria population could have been the root cause, since others have said they run Nopox at high levels, like 24ml per day, and have great results.

So I started dosing MB7, but so far have not had much drop in nitrates (from 61 to 57), after dosing 40ml per day in my 200g tank for 3 weeks. So now I'm thinking, maybe the bacteria need more than just 4ml Nopox per day. Does this make sense to you?

Also, when I had been dosing 16ml of Nopox, but not enough bacteria to consume it, could that be a cause of the coral issues, since all this carbon source is in the tank, but no bacteria to eat it?

I'd like to increase the Nopox dose, but am afraid of the coral issues I had before. But if that could have been due to lack of bacteria, which I have hopefully corrected with MB7 dosing, maybe I would have better luck at a higher Nopox dose?

I found MB7 took a couple of months, to kick in.
Don't forget to turn off any UV FOR 4 hours.

 

[Miami Reef]

What an amazing thread! I learned so much!

 

[ReefKeeperElite]

I found MB7 took a couple of months, to kick in.
Don't forget to turn off any UV FOR 4 hours.

Do you think the bacteria in the MB7 I've been dosing for the past 3 weeks can still be in the system, even though the only carbon dosing I've been doing is 4ml Nopox? I am hoping to find the right combo of MB7 and Nopox for my 200g, currently at 57ppm nitrates. Hopefully without upsetting the coral in the process, due to too much Nopox for the bacteria in the system, or too much MB7 because there is not enough Nopox to feed them.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Bacteria can generally expand in numbers pretty fast if a readily metabolized organic like acetate is added, and if nothing else limits them.

Im not sure why you saw a coral issue. Maybe some trace element got driven too low by bacterial growth, or maybe coincidence.

 

[ReefGeezer]

I don't think adding a little vinegar would make any difference.

I dose about 30 ml of MB7 in my 90 weekly combined with DIY Coral Snow per @SunnyX. I do turn off the pumps. I don't mix it with tank water first, just straight into 60ml of DIY Coral Snow solution. I use it just 'cause I HOPE it might break down some of the organic stuff that collects on my rocks.

I personally don't think the MB7 is establishing a new bacterial population in my tank, and don't think it would even if dosed more often. It would need to compete with all the other heterotrophic bacteria already present. I simply hope it helps a little before perishing and decomposing or being skimmed out

 

[w8lifts]

This the kind of tinkering I let BRS play with, complicating something that is just meant to dose for desired results can turn into a mess if you are just guessing.

 

[ReefKeeperElite]

Bacteria can generally expand in numbers pretty fast if a readily metabolized organic like acetate is added, and if nothing else limits them.

Im not sure why you saw a coral issue. Maybe some trace element got driven too low by bacterial growth, or maybe coincidence.

Nopox seemed to deplete potassium quickly, down to something like 360 before I caught it. I test potassium regularly now, and maintain at 400. I had already dialed down the Nopox to prevent further coral damage before learning about the potassium deficiency, so can’t say for sure. Don’t know of any other trace element being affected. Any thoughts on bacterial growth putting a strong demand on potassium? Any other element I should check?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Nopox seemed to deplete potassium quickly, down to something like 360 before I caught it. I test potassium regularly now, and maintain at 400. I had already dialed down the Nopox to prevent further coral damage before learning about the potassium deficiency, so can’t say for sure. Don’t know of any other trace element being affected. Any thoughts on bacterial growth putting a strong demand on potassium? Any other element I should check?

That is not a usual result and I’d be surprised if it is accurate as a consequence of dosing organic carbon for a short period of time. Expanding bacterial numbers will take up some potassium, but far less than the uptake of nitrogen.

E. Coli contains 10 times as much N as potassium, and that comes from 44 times as much nitrate as potassium.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Elemental-Composition-of-Bacteria-dry-wt-basis_tbl1_226316798

Potassium is not a trace element (it’s a major ion), but trace elements are used by all growing organisms so maintaining them can be important.

 

[ReefKeeperElite]

That is not a usual result and I’d be surprised if it is accurate as a consequence of dosing organic carbon for a short period of time. Expanding bacterial numbers will take up some potassium, but far less than the uptake of nitrogen.

E. Coli contains 10 times as much N as potassium, and that comes from 44 times as much nitrate as potassium.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Elemental-Composition-of-Bacteria-dry-wt-basis_tbl1_226316798

Potassium is not a trace element (it’s a major ion), but trace elements are used by all growing organisms so maintaining them can be important.

Thanks for the info, and for the link for bacteria makeup. Leaves me baffled about the potassium though. If I was dosing too much Nopox for the bacteria available, would that have an effect on potassium? I'll be spending some time this weekend trying to understand what happened to my potassium after starting Nopox.

Also, during the Nopox dosing, and due to the associated drop in ph, I also started co2 scrubbing to help increase the oxygen levels. Not sure if related, but that was the only other thing I did coincident with Nopox dosing.

 

[razorskiss]

According to brightwell, mb7 bacteria are encysted. The rate of excystation in bacteria varies quite a bit but my guess is that it's at least on the order of 10's of minutes and more likely to be on the order of hours. I'm not sure that a carbon source is likely to trigger excystation on its own that rapidly especially at such a low concentration. Plus in the absence of other nutrients (NO3 and PO4) proliferation wouldn't take off much. You might consider it as a cost saving method to "bloom" the bacteria outside of a dt but by the time you add nutrients and oxygenation and wait for the bloom to occur you may as well have just added the same amount of starter culture to the dt.

 

[ReefKeeperElite]

Thanks for the info, and for the link for bacteria makeup. Leaves me baffled about the potassium though. If I was dosing too much Nopox for the bacteria available, would that have an effect on potassium? I'll be spending some time this weekend trying to understand what happened to my potassium after starting Nopox.

Also, during the Nopox dosing, and due to the associated drop in ph, I also started co2 scrubbing to help increase the oxygen levels. Not sure if related, but that was the only other thing I did coincident with Nopox dosing.

I read this article last weekend to understand more about the relationship between alk and nitrates:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.htm

It also led me to discover I had been overdosing alk, even though my testing had always consistently shown a dkh of 9. I dropped my alk dosing by approximately half to be more in alignment with my ca dosing. I am still consistently getting a dkh of 9 after 4 days at the new dosage, testing each day.

I use Seachem Reef Builder for alk, and Seachem Reef Advantage Calcium for ca. I mix 1/2 cup per gallon of RODI water. But at some point I got mislead by the mirage mentioned in Randy's article, and had increased the alk dosage by almost double the ca dosage (100ml/day alk, vs 60ml/day ca), thinking this is what was needed to keep my alk steady.

I am not exactly sure how the overdosing of alk would affect nitrates though, but since understanding the interaction between the two better, I'm almost certain there would be an effect. Putting my finger on it is above my pay grade though So maybe you could help me understand Randy?