Pressure on False Claim Products

Salty_Northerner · Dec 6, 2023

Call Jack himself and see what he says, 570-486-4787

Usually when you email Brightwell it's Jack replying or calling you back

But I also agree and thanks to Randy for setting me straight on Seachems pH crap and what it does to the system. Nothing like running the HRS in my house to keep the pH nice and stable.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 6, 2023

This was my email response to Seachem/Aquavitro after their support response email:

Sorry, but that is a pitifully incorrect statement. Sad you believe such falsehoods.

Randy

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 6, 2023

Salty_Northerner said:
Call Jack himself and see what he says, 570-486-4787

Usually when you email Brightwell it's Jack replying or calling you back

But I also agree and thanks to Randy for setting me straight on Seachems pH crap and what it does to the system. Nothing like running the HRS in my house to keep the pH nice and stable.

Yes, if they don’t respond well, that can be a next step. I’ve been partially successful at getting them to change product descriptions in the past.

GK3 · Dec 6, 2023

Court_Appointed_Hypeman said:
This was my thought on it as well, but there is a person who posted trying to figure out why their alk was over 20DKH, come to find out they were using a product with the "raises PH doesn't add calcium or alk" description recomended to them by their LFS.

i don't want to contribute in any way to that anymore. I love the brightwell products I use, and if they have been made aware now for sure they have a product with this claim, thanks to rand's ticket, and don't correct it, I will have to stop buying their products.

It majorly bumbs me out that people have probably lost their livestock due to a product that is essentially tricking them.

I had this happen to me years ago. I had too much CO2 in the water and it was lowering my pH. I needed a way to raise it and the LFS sold me a seachem product (can’t recall name) and said raises pH without raising anything else. Tried half of what it recommended and tested alk. Went up 2 dkh. Lol. I just stopped using it. Never thought to read the whole label to see what it said about alk. Needless to say I didn’t go back to that lfs.

Randy Holmes-Farley · Dec 6, 2023

MnFish1 said:
@Randy Holmes-Farley I was curious - that product that I posted about - with my discus - clearly did 'something' very quickly. The discus expert (world-wide) that I consulted about the symptoms suggested nitrite toxicity - and within a very short time (twice to my embarrassment) - the symptoms which were moribund fish - abated. Do you think that the sodium bisulfite (I think thats what it was that you quoted from the SDS) could have helped? On the product label it gives a dose for 'starting a tank' - the dose for detoxifying nitrite/nitrate/ammonia is (forgive me - either 5x or 10x the usual dose)?

Yes, as I mentioned in that thread, metabisulfite and similar molecules are known to react with nitrite, at least in fresh water.

MnFish1 · Dec 6, 2023

SaltyCabbage said:
Ever since the prime issue a few years ago I’ve completely stopped believing anything Seachem claims about their products. Seems like nothing has changed

Most of the problems with the company response is that their response is 'chemistry true' - but in a tank - not completely true - not making a judgement on SEACHEM - I have no clue

MnFish1 · Dec 6, 2023

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Yes, as I mentioned in that thread, metabisulfite and similar molecules are known to react with nitrite, at least in fresh water.

The product is marketed for salt and fresh - thus my question

GK3 · Dec 6, 2023

I don’t think you can ever stop a company from stating things like “accelerates coral growth” or “brightens colors”. Those have almost certainly been “tested” and under a particular set of conditions it probably did as it said. While this makes the statement true I don’t think it necessarily guarantees it will work in another tank with different conditions.

A_Blind_Reefer · Dec 6, 2023

Reefer Matt · Dec 6, 2023

I'm reevaluating the use of Seachem products myself. I had a bottle of their zooplankton and put some under the scope. It was just dead plankton bits. And not a lot of them.

I tried two different bottles. They never claim it to be alive or otherwise, so I guess it's technically correct?

Nonya · Dec 6, 2023

It seems that unless every additive/supplement is independently analyzed, how are we to trust they provide even close to what they state?

Nonya · Dec 6, 2023

Reefer Matt said:
They never claim it to be alive or otherwise, so I guess it's technically correct?

Bingo.

KStatefan · Dec 6, 2023

crit21 said:
It seems that unless every additive/supplement is independently analyzed, how are we to trust they provide even close to what they state?

You can't

Nonya · Dec 6, 2023

There are many rabbit trails to follow here. One strikes close to my heart--LEDs. The Chinese black box makers claim their boxes are so many watts, but when actually measured they are much lower than advertised.

For reference, watts equals volts times amps. A 3 watt LED that's supposed to operate at 3.2 volts needs 0.94 amps to consume 3 watts. When the seller underpowers them with 500 milliamp drivers they'll burn out if operated at 1 amp, those "3 watt" LEDs are forced to run at 1.5 watts.

I've found one BB Chinese LED labeled as 400 watts, but it only used 1.1 amps, meaning it was actually a 133 watt LED.

JayM · Dec 6, 2023

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Well, Seachem has stooped to a new low in misinformation and ignorance. Here is their response:

Support FD (Seachem Laboratories)
Dec 6, 2023, 17:41 AST
Hello! Thank you for the email.

The hydroxide blend in Balance will bind up acid sources in the tank, thus raising the pH. It also interacts with the carbonate and converts it to bicarbonate. Ultimately, it does not raise alkalinity, but rather is re-organizing the balance of the existing buffers".

Best regards,
FD

I don't know jack about chemistry, and even I can smell the BS in that response.

It sounds kinda like saying "rubbing two sticks together doesn't make a fire, it just reorganizes the balance of the existing wood".

Nonya · Dec 6, 2023

KStatefan said:
You can't

I can't, but perhaps a chemist can.

Nonya · Dec 6, 2023

Randy Holmes-Farley said:
Well, Seachem has stooped to a new low in misinformation and ignorance. Here is their response:

Support FD (Seachem Laboratories)
Dec 6, 2023, 17:41 AST
Hello! Thank you for the email.

The hydroxide blend in Balance will bind up acid sources in the tank, thus raising the pH. It also interacts with the carbonate and converts it to bicarbonate. Ultimately, it does not raise alkalinity, but rather is re-organizing the balance of the existing buffers".

Best regards,
FD

Is Seachem aware they responded to a chemist?

JayM · Dec 6, 2023

crit21 said:
Is Seachem aware they responded to a chemist?

Probably not - but it shouldn't matter.

Malcontent · Dec 6, 2023

Reefer Matt said:
I'm reevaluating the use of Seachem products myself. I had a bottle of their zooplankton and put some under the scope. It was just dead plankton bits. And not a lot of them. I tried two different bottles. They never claim it to be alive or otherwise, so I guess it's technically correct?

Being technically correct isn't enough. The elements of deceptive advertising include analyzing both whether the statements were deceptive or had the potential to deceive the average consumer.

I don't trust Seachem at all. Their marketing claims are ridiculous and every time one of their products is subject to any sort of scientific test it fails.

Mellotang · Dec 6, 2023

What about Fuel?
See lots of people swear by the aqua vitro fuel

Malcontent said:
I don't trust Seachem at all. Their marketing claims are ridiculous and every time one of their products is subject to any sort of scientific test it fails.