Probable new approach in STN syndrome?

[rosshamsandwich]

iodine?

 

[Jose Mayo]

Are you sure about that dosage? I'm seeing 100 microgram/mL which would be 100 mg/L

Also, I'm not seeing a duration of the bath that they did. I see they studied the corals for 6 days but are we to assume that they were doing the redosing and water change every 12 hours for 6 days?

I'm looking at doing this treatment and was really hoping to get away with 24 hours

Yes, you are right, 100 micrograms / ml = 100 mg / liter

For some reason I wrote badly, I'm sorry.

 

[Jose Mayo]

Also, I'm not seeing a duration of the bath that they did. I see they studied the corals for 6 days but are we to assume that they were doing the redosing and water change every 12 hours for 6 days?

From what I understand, they used 3-liter tanks for the experiment and exchanged 50% of the water every 12 hours, 1.5 liters, with antibiotics at the concentration of 100 micrograms / ml.

 

[Velcro]

From what I understand, they used 3-liter tanks for the experiment and exchanged 50% of the water every 12 hours, 1.5 liters, with antibiotics at the concentration of 100 micrograms / ml.

I worry about the instability of removing the coral from the frag tank for 6 days.

 

[Jose Mayo]

I worry about the instability of removing the coral from the frag tank for 6 days.

Due to the high concentration of the drug, and frequent water changes, such an approach may be very expensive in a tank of many liters ...

Perhaps the good information is that antibiotics can control STN, but a new protocol, more suited to the reality of the hobby, will have to be developed.

Regards

 

[Velcro]

Due to the high concentration of the drug, and frequent water changes, such an approach may be very expensive in a tank of many liters ...

Perhaps the good information is that antibiotics can control STN, but a new protocol, more suited to the reality of the hobby, will have to be developed.

Regards

I got ampicillin IV on hand now. I think I'm just going to do a 24 hour bath on some less valuable stuff that I have currently STNing from the base. I'll do one redose after 12 hours with a 50% water change.

 

[Jose Mayo]

I got ampicillin IV on hand now. I think I'm just going to do a 24 hour bath on some less valuable stuff that I have currently STNing from the base. I'll do one redose after 12 hours with a 50% water change.

I have always done my experiments based on a tank that does not have excretory apparatus, so if I remove the chemical filters (carbon, Purigen ...) and turn off the physical filters (UV, violet, blue), I will have against the drug only the degradation and the ionic interaction of dissolved salts in water. Much of the drug resists these factors well and may have a broad residual effect under the conditions of an aquarium.

In this experiment reported above, I think that perhaps the frequent 50% water exchanges have aimed more at the stability of the medium for the chosen corals than the actual need for these same corals. Maybe I would not do this and look for other ways to secure a medium, rather than "great," just "right."

Maybe just monitoring the ammonia, as we do when dealing with fish with copper, would already allow us to work with much less radical and less frequent exchanges, and still guarantee good results.

Regards

 

[BigJohnny]

I got ampicillin IV on hand now. I think I'm just going to do a 24 hour bath on some less valuable stuff that I have currently STNing from the base. I'll do one redose after 12 hours with a 50% water change.

Hey velcro just FYI that stning from the base may be partly due to your extremely low iodine which I saw on your triton test you were asking about on the forum. Many prominent reefers and many less so (me being one) believe maintaining nsw or slightly elevated levels of iodine helps prevent stn from the base.

 

[Velcro]

I have always done my experiments based on a tank that does not have excretory apparatus, so if I remove the chemical filters (carbon, Purigen ...) and turn off the physical filters (UV, violet, blue), I will have against the drug only the degradation and the ionic interaction of dissolved salts in water. Much of the drug resists these factors well and may have a broad residual effect under the conditions of an aquarium.

In this experiment reported above, I think that perhaps the frequent 50% water exchanges have aimed more at the stability of the medium for the chosen corals than the actual need for these same corals. Maybe I would not do this and look for other ways to secure a medium, rather than "great," just "right."

Maybe just monitoring the ammonia, as we do when dealing with fish with copper, would already allow us to work with much less radical and less frequent exchanges, and still guarantee good results.

Regards

Ampicillin is a beta-lactam antibiotic, which are known to be fairly unstable in aqueous environments. That being said, it looks like ampicillin in saline tends to only degrade abnout 10% in 2-3 days so the one dose may be sufficient.

Hey velcro just FYI that stning from the base may be partly due to your extremely low iodine which I saw on your triton test you were asking about on the forum. Many prominent reefers and many less so (me being one) believe maintaining nsw or slightly elevated levels of iodine helps prevent stn from the base.

Thanks for the reply. I actually did dose iodine slowly over the last week up to NSW level so maybe that will help

 

[BigJohnny]

@Jose Mayo

Thanks for posting.

@Diesel used to dose a daily mixture into his acropora dominant aquarium that included a very small dose of metro. He can elaborate on who he got that idea from but the goal was to protect the corals from bacterial issues without harming the bio filter or inverts.

Also, Dr. Tims came out with a product recently called Ecobalance that apparently battles/prevents vibrio and other "bad bacteria". Of course the formula is proprietary and I have no idea what is in it, but it claims to contain "multi-strain probiotic bacteria".

Aquarium Probiotic Bacteria | Maintain Optimal Water Quality | DrTim's Aquatics
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/probiotic-bacteria

Eco-Balance Research | DrTim's Aquatics
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/probiotic-bacteria/eco-balance-research

 

[Velcro]

@Jose Mayo

Thanks for posting.

@Diesel used to dose a daily mixture into his acropora dominant aquarium that included a very small dose of metro. He can elaborate on who he got that idea from but the goal was to protect the corals from bacterial issues without harming the bio filter or inverts.

Also, Dr. Tims came out with a product recently called Ecobalance that apparently battles/prevents vibrio and other "bad bacteria". Of course the formula is proprietary and I have no idea what is in it, but it claims to contain "multi-strain probiotic bacteria".

Aquarium Probiotic Bacteria | Maintain Optimal Water Quality | DrTim's Aquatics
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/probiotic-bacteria

Eco-Balance Research | DrTim's Aquatics
http://www.drtimsaquatics.com/probiotic-bacteria/eco-balance-research

I've been dosing that eco balance for 3 days but still watching new STN from base sink in.

 

[Velcro]

I've been dosing that eco balance for 3 days but still watching new STN from base sink in.

EDIT... been dosing it for 3 weeks

 

[BigJohnny]

Oh interesting. I'd imagine it's something that would take a while to build up, but I obviously have no idea. A lot of dr. Tims products are simply bacteria isolated from aquariums so it is likely already present in our tanks, just a booster essentially. Like mayo said it could be something besides vibrio which that may only work for, I dunno. Would be cool to look at under a microscope.

 

[Hans-Werner]

As far as I know the pathogen approach was not very successful. Most diseases of corals which seemed to be caused by a pathogen later looked more like an imbalance or disorder of the microbial community contributing to the coral holobiont. The disorder on its side may be caused by environmental factors.

 

[chicago]

following.. as my frags fight off STN...

 

[cvicente]

Forest Rohwer, PhD years ago did some studies using antibiotics to treat WBD and RTN.

 

[Breakthecycle2]

Following

 

[drawman]

Also following. As others have said attempting this in a hospital tank would throw a host of complications at an already weakened coral. If parameters could be matched and stress minimized it would be an interesting trial.

As @Jose Mayo was describing if you had glass/ceramic media (ie Siporax) as your biological filter you could remove it during abx tx.

I am experiencing a very frustrating STN event myself, @Velcro and @BigJohnny a triton test is probably in order and I will look out for iodine among other things.

 

[BigJohnny]

My friends,

I was at the ReefSMART 2018 Expo in Raleigh, NC today and I spoke to an aquatic vet/marine biologist after her talk on coral biology and disease. I told her about this thread and we also discussed two other very interesting techniques to stop rtn/stn that I had never even considered. She said she has had success with the first one many times with various corals including acropora, and the 2nd is experimental but shows promise:

1. Mix an antibiotic like neomycin/kanamycin or even tetracycline with cyanoacrylate and apply it with a tongue depresser or something on the white band and just above on the bottom of healthy flesh. Obviously a variation on the superglue ring technique which have tried before with mixed results. I thought it was a fantastic idea and look forward to trying when I am unfortunate enough to need to. She recommended kanamycin unless you can get stronger concentrations of neomycin/tetra from a vet. Powder is ideal.

2. Gut loading brine or rotifers with antibiotics and feeding them to the coral
She said she believes this could be vrry effective as it could theoretically distribute the antibiotic throughout the entire coral. Early stages, limited research.

Just thought I would share those. Pretty cool stuff.

 

[drawman]

My friends,

I was at the ReefSMART 2018 Expo in Raleigh, NC today and I spoke to an aquatic vet/marine biologist after her talk on coral biology and disease. I told her about this thread and we also discussed two other very interesting techniques to stop rtn/stn that I had never even considered. She said she has had success with the first one many times with various corals including acropora, and the 2nd is experimental but shows promise:

1. Mix an antibiotic like neomycin/kanamycin or even tetracycline with cynoacrylate and apply it with a tongue depresser or something on the white band and just above on the bottom of healthy flesh. Obviously a variation on the superglue ring technique which have tried before with mixed results. I thought it was a fantastic idea and look forward to trying when I am unfortunate enough to need to. She recommended kanamycin unless you can get stronger concentrations of neomycin/tetra from a vet. Powder is ideal.

2. Gut loading brine or rotifers with antibiotics and feeding them to the coral
She said she believes this could be vrry effective as it could theoretically distribute the antibiotic throughout the entire coral. Early stages, limited research.

Just thought I would share those. Pretty cool stuff.

Very very interesting. So I'm assuming a product like Seachem Kanaplex would suffice? I wonder at what ratio you would mix?

As I said I am going through an STN event and who knows I may try this...if I do I will sure document.

 

[Jose Mayo]

So ... there is still a lot to discover about the microbiology of our hobby, and if you are one of those who likes to dig deeper into these subjects, you may often come across information that is at least astonishing;

In the following article, I read that Vibrio vulnificus, a bacterium usually involved as a likely participant in the context of coral diseases, can also cause human disease by consuming seafood, especially raw oysters, but will not always cause disease:

It needs to multiply in a medium rich in iron, to become infectious! (could it be, the excess of iron in the environment, a triggering factor for STN?)

Would this "presence of iron" also be necessary to infect corals? We do not know yet, but if there's smoke in there, there may be fire.

Besides this information, the article brings a table of antibiotics suitable for the control of Vibrio vulnificus, which may be interesting for the development of this discussion.

Read below:
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scr...0036-46652001000500005&lng=en&nrm=iso&tlng=en

Regards