Problem with Pajama cardinals

[Wet_Fretboards]

Hey guys.

So, I started with 7 pajama cardinals in a tank with a scopas tang, a royal gramma, several nassarius snails and a pom pom crab. I came home from work one morning and found a pile of snails in the middle of the sand. I immediately knew something had died. It was a PJ cardinal. The snails had already emptied his skin. I threw him out. A couple of days later, I noticed one of the remaining PJs being blown around in the flow of the tank. He was still very much alive though, and would straighten himself out briefly. Eventually, he became stuck against the weir of the overflow, pretty much lifeless in appearance, and not knowing what else to do, I removed him and flushed him. Today, I noticed the same behavior in yet another, and just now found him stuck to the overflow. They are all very active and healthy appearing, and eat like crazy. I thought maybe it was swim bladder, because even though they can't swim well when this happens, they appear to be in good health otherwise. Normal breathing rate and all. I feed thawed Mysis once a day from a medicine dropper.
All other inhabitants are doing great including the pom pom crab, and corals including acro. My parameters 10 minutes ago were:

Salinity 35PPM via refractometer
PH 8.2
Amonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20 (Water change is tomorrow morning)
PO4 0 ish... I need a better low range tester
Ca 440
DKh 8
Mg 1300

Any help or previous experience would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Maritimer]

Were these guys quarantined, or treated for any of the common diseases?

~Bruce, who's seen velvet and flukes show no physical symptoms and just a few behavioral ones . . .

 

[Wet_Fretboards]

Unfortunately, I don't have a QT. I did acclimate properly, testing temp, ph and SG.

 

[Maritimer]

Gotcha.

The only things I could think of, offhand, were flukes (which can be treated in the display, using Prazi-Pro), velvet (which _really_ shouldn't be treated in the display, and would have to be treated _fast_, as that's the way it works), or some kind of toxin. I don't really see a toxin affecting the cardinals and nobody else, though.

How long have the cardinals been in the tank?

Possibly another member of the #reefsquad will have additional thoughts ...

~Bruce

 

[melypr1985]

Cardinals can sometimes live in groups, but a lot of the time they will pick each other off until they are down to either a pair or just one. This happens to me at the store when I have cardinals that are a bit older than juvies. It happened in my own tank as well which is why I only have one, very large, bangaii cardinal in my tank. So, while disease is certainly possible, aggression is also just as possible.

 

[dbl]

I would tend to agree with Meredith on the aggression topic. I too added several when I first started only to be thinned to one.

 

[Wet_Fretboards]

Gotcha.

The only things I could think of, offhand, were flukes (which can be treated in the display, using Prazi-Pro), velvet (which _really_ shouldn't be treated in the display, and would have to be treated _fast_, as that's the way it works), or some kind of toxin. I don't really see a toxin affecting the cardinals and nobody else, though.

How long have the cardinals been in the tank?

Possibly another member of the #reefsquad will have additional thoughts ...

~Bruce

They've been in a couple weeks now I suppose. They all came crime live aquaria. As did everything in the tank except the snails.

Cardinals can sometimes live in groups, but a lot of the time they will pick each other off until they are down to either a pair or just one. This happens to me at the store when I have cardinals that are a bit older than juvies. It happened in my own tank as well which is why I only have one, very large, bangaii cardinal in my tank. So, while disease is certainly possible, aggression is also just as possible.

Interesting, though I've never seen them even jump towards one another.

 

[melypr1985]

Interesting, though I've never seen them even jump towards one another.

You won't usually. They do it really sneaky like. A quick swipe or nip then back to looking all placid and floating around. lol

 

[Wet_Fretboards]

Lol! Good to know. Thanks for the info.

 

[eatbreakfast]

PJ cardinals are more social than most other cardinals, so unless the tank is very small or a pr is breeding, I wouldn't assume aggression with pj's. If it is aggression you will see the weakest being kept twice as far away from the remaining cardinals.

The weakness and being whipped by the current sounds more like malnutrition. This can be caused by internal parasites, or if they are young pj's, needing increased frequency of feedings.

 

[mort]

PJ cardinals are more social than most other cardinals, so unless the tank is very small or a pr is breeding, I wouldn't assume aggression with pj's. If it is aggression you will see the weakest being kept twice as far away from the remaining cardinals.

The weakness and being whipped by the current sounds more like malnutrition. This can be caused by internal parasites, or if they are young pj's, needing increased frequency of feedings.

Agree with this, pyjama cardinals are much more excepting of conspecifics. Kauderns on the other hand are extremely intolerant.

 

[cjd]

PJ Cardinals like lower flow areas as well especially if they are small. If the more dominate ones occupied the lower flow areas chasing away the other little guys, they were fighting currents all day and night probably exhausting themselves . Between that and being picked on by the more dominate ones leading to their demise. And yes there is also a chance of disease ?? So anybody's guess really.

 

[leahfiish]

Just curious, what size tank is it? I am also leaning towards aggression. Was there one that was smaller, or hanging out away from the group at all? Also I've seen cardinals be prone to bacterial infections so keep that in mine too.

 

[Wet_Fretboards]

It's a reefer 170. I think it may be aggression now because today I have noticed that of the remaining 3, 2 are sticking together and the other one is by itself.

 

[ca1ore]

I have a trio, but they started out as six. Mine are now too large, lazy and old to fight anymore (kinda like me)!

 

[Wet_Fretboards]

Another one bit the dust last night, and another today. One left. Everyone else in the tank is still perfectly fine.

 

[Steve1500]

Will a school (5-7) of PJ cardinals and a benghazi cardinal get along if introduced into the tank at the same time? Looking for a set of shoaling/schooling fish. The tank will be a 180G (DT) bare bottom and I already have two clowns, tangs and a few other fish. Any other suggestions on some shoaling fish would be appreciated. On another post I asked about chromis and that idea got "'tanked"....unless there are some chromis besides blue/green chromis that have a fighting chance of schooling.

 

[rkpetersen]

Necropost! The Pajamas might stay together in a dark quiet area but I doubt the Bangghai (lol Benghazi!) would have anything to do with them. For a tank that size a school of anthias could look stunning. They need to be fed frequently though. And don't get Bartlett's Anthias; although beautiful, they are relentless about murdering each other.

 

[Steve1500]

Necropost! The Pajamas might stay together in a dark quiet area but I doubt the Bangghai (lol Benghazi!) would have anything to do with them. For a tank that size a school of anthias could look stunning. They need to be fed frequently though. And don't get Bartlett's Anthias; although beautiful, they are relentless about murdering each other.

Thanks, any suggestions on a particular anthias? I have tangs, clowns, benghai, basslet and a small springeri damsel. Lots of rock work but bare bottom.

 

[eatbreakfast]

PJ's don't really school, they just do their own thing. Blue eye cardinals will swim together, but are pretty bland.

Randalls and dispar anthias are pretty social and relatively hardy.