Problem with tuning Reefer plumbed to basement! Please help!

[Brian1f1]

Hello,

I plumbed my new Reefer 525 to a basement sump. I connected the emergency drain and the main drain below the tank into one line. I think this is causing the emergency drain to suck air all the time and gargle horribly, so I might need to drill and run a third line? As a temporary fix I shut the emergency drain off with a check valve, and I got blessed silence. The next issue is I cannot seem to tune the water level! It either seems to very very slowly (over several hours) gradually increase to the point of flooding without intervention, or slowly drains until the overflow is sucking air. I am making very small spaced out adjustments. Why can’t I balance this thing? Is it just that I need to keep trying to tune it via the dial on the drain? I’ve been tending to this for 36 hours, and it’s making me nuts. Is it not possible to maintain a water level in these without the emergency drain? It seems like it should be possible bc even if plumbed correctly the emergency line should really be inert if the tank level is dialed in right?

FYI, pump in basement is a SICCE sdc 9.0. I’m trying to run it at full bore, (which is coming out to be about 350 gph as measured at the draining point). Sorry for all the questions, I’m extremely frustrated at this point.

Photo just to make sure what I think I did matches what I actually did...

 

[nautical_nathaniel]

Anyone in the #reefsquad good with this sort of plumbing?

 

[Crabs McJones]

The emergency line and primarly line should remain separate all the way through. So basically whats happening is that after you dial in the main valve, which creates a siphon, you're breaking that siphon after the valve by reintruducing air into the system from the emergency line.

 

[Greybeard]

Hi.

A two drain system such as this one, typically called a Herbie drain, requires each drain be run to the sump independently. If you join the drains, you're defeating the purpose of having two.

Drain 1 should run full siphon. It's opening should be entirely below water level. It should carry nearly all of the water volume. It should be adjusted so that it is _just_ slower than the return pump... set it so that water level is climbing slowly in the overflow box. Once water level reaches the higher opening on the 2nd drain, it should begin to trickle over. That's what you want, just a trickle of water going down drain 2. Since it's just a trickle, it won't be noisy, but it is fully open, and so capable of dealing with the variance in return pump output.

It appears, what you're doing, is trying to get your drain to _exactly_ match your return pump. Won't work... you'll never get there. Why? Because the return pump varies, and the drain is going to vary. They'll never match.

The goal is to have a drain capable of dealing with more flow than the pump can produce, without sucking air, which makes the system loud. Thus, the trickle drain. Capable of handling far more flow than the pump is producing, but only being used for a very small trickle, so it's not noisy. If your primary drain becomes clogged, the trickle should be capable of handling ALL of the return flow, so that the system doesn't overflow and make a mess, but it should be LOUD while doing so, to alert you that there is a problem.

 

[Brian1f1]

Hi.

A two drain system such as this one, typically called a Herbie drain, requires each drain be run to the sump independently. If you join the drains, you're defeating the purpose of having two.

Drain 1 should run full siphon. It's opening should be entirely below water level. It should carry nearly all of the water volume. It should be adjusted so that it is _just_ slower than the return pump... set it so that water level is climbing slowly in the overflow box. Once water level reaches the higher opening on the 2nd drain, it should begin to trickle over. That's what you want, just a trickle of water going down drain 2. Since it's just a trickle, it won't be noisy, but it is fully open, and so capable of dealing with the variance in return pump output.

It appears, what you're doing, is trying to get your drain to _exactly_ match your return pump. Won't work... you'll never get there. Why? Because the return pump varies, and the drain is going to vary. They'll never match.

The goal is to have a drain capable of dealing with more flow than the pump can produce, without sucking air, which makes the system loud. Thus, the trickle drain. Capable of handling far more flow than the pump is producing, but only being used for a very small trickle, so it's not noisy. If your primary drain becomes clogged, the trickle should be capable of handling ALL of the return flow, so that the system doesn't overflow and make a mess, but it should be LOUD while doing so, to alert you that there is a problem.

Thank you, my previous system was not an herbie. It can function largely the way you describe tied in below like I did, but it’s always loud. I’ll have another line run.

Semi-related, do you think 350 GPH is a reasonable return rate on a tank this size? That looks to be my max.

 

[Crabs McJones]

Thank you, my previous system was not an herbie. It can function largely the way you describe tied in below like I did, but it’s always loud. I’ll have another line run.

Semi-related, do you think 350 GPH is a reasonable return rate on a tank this size? That looks to be my max.

Depended on your goals, you're looking at only about 3 times turnover (if your system is the 108 gallon) . Most tanks are run from 5 to 7 times turnover (550-750gph), with those running the triton method at 10 times turnover (1000gph).

 

[Brian1f1]

LPS, large sump and refugium (150g trough and full reefer sump as fuge). Gyre in tank. You think that turnover rate will be an issue? I can’t get anymore out of the pump I bought.

 

[Greybeard]

Thank you, my previous system was not an herbie. It can function largely the way you describe tied in below like I did, but it’s always loud. I’ll have another line run.

Semi-related, do you think 350 GPH is a reasonable return rate on a tank this size? That looks to be my max.

No problem, that's what we're here for

~130 gallon tank, 350 GPH return, you're looking at turning over your tank just less than 3 times per hour. Can it work? Sure. You'll want lots of flow from submersible pumps in the display, since you're getting very little from the return pump, but yes, it can work.

Personally, I always shoot for 6x tank volume turnover per hour. Why? I don't really know, that's what I was told when I set up my first sump, and I'm still doing it that way, but I've seen tanks with much lower flow rates run just fine. My new tank was designed using Triton's guidelines, and capable of 10x turnover, but since I'm no longer using Triton, I've slowed the return pump back to about 6x turnover rate.

Lots of interest these days in dual return pumps... a 2nd Sicce 9, with check valves above both pumps, joining into a single return line, would likely put you back into the 5x or 6x range... and give you the added benefit of keeping some flow, even if a pump fails. I've never tried dual return pumps... I like oversized DC return pumps, running at slightly lower than their max capability. Why? Gives you some adjustment, if you need it, and run at less than max speed, most DC pumps are pretty darned quiet.

 

[Engloid]

You don't need a siphon after the valve in the siphon line.....but it can make noise if there's air in the line. That said, here's my setup...and it runs great. I ran all three lines into a 1.5" and down to the basement. and video...

 

[Brian1f1]

You don't need a siphon after the valve in the siphon line.....but it can make noise if there's air in the line. That said, here's my setup...and it runs great. I ran all three lines into a 1.5" and down to the basement. and video...

Interesting man. I ended up drilling and running a third line, it now runs completely silently.

Why didn’t you run yours separately?

Edit: oh I see, you have three drain lines? I only have two. I’m not sure why your emergency drain isn’t sucking air. Mine was like a broken Hoover.

 

[Engloid]

My emergency line is 1.5", so it may have t0 pull a lot of air in order to make noise. Part of the reason I made it so large is because I knew it would help introduce air into the header at the bottom. It's similar to a toilet and other plumbing in the house...it needs a vent. IF I had one single siphon line all the way to the basement, it wouldn't need any type of vent, but since I made a single header that all three ran into, I figured it would be a good idea. Not only that, but it was simple and cheap to do the full size.

 

[mazzdaq]

Interesting man. I ended up drilling and running a third line, it now runs completely silently.

Why didn’t you run yours separately?

Edit: oh I see, you have three drain lines? I only have two. I’m not sure why your emergency drain isn’t sucking air. Mine was like a broken Hoover.

Hey Brian, I'm about to set up my Reefer 525xl and I'm also plumbing mine down to my basement. What size PVC pipe did you use 1" or did you go larger? Also what connectors did you use to convert the Red Sea mm to inches. I saw Bulk Reef Supply sells some. Any advice to pictures you can show of your basement set up would be greatly appreciated. I'm using a Lifereef sump and Refugium, so all my pumps and equipment will be external.