Problems with H. magnifica

[Nuno Magalhães]

I have a H. magnifica some three and a half years from now. It was always doing fine, eating well, and seemed always very happy. It host 3 adult ocellaris clowns, a reproducing pair plus a little one.
The last six months it changed a lot. It seems that it shrunk, and the tentacles became a lot shorter. It became also very difficult to feed. Eats very slow, and usually the clowns steal the food from its mouth.
Water is exactly the same, I keep always the same routine. The only thing that changed is that I introduced some corals in the tank, like zooanthus, caulastrea, montipora and seriatopora. I've also noticed that my mushrooms (mainly discossomas) sufered also a bit. Some of them died, and the ones that survived don't grow and reproduce like before.
Could it be any chemical war between corals an anemone?
My tank has 220 litre, I have 3 clowns, 3 bengai cardinals, one yellow Zebrassoma, one flame angel, three gobies 3 clams, plus the refered corals.
I attached 4 pics, from 2011, 2012, 2013 and from today. I think you can see the big difference.
I really want to do something, because this nem is my favorite animal from my tank, and I hope that it will live many years from now.

 

[Reefahholic]

I think it's possible the mag is responding to the new corals you introduced. This is just my guess.

What I'm positive about is that he's caught an infection. Probably from being stressed.

He definetely needs to be treated or your gonna loose him. I've had two that have got infection and ended up in the same state as yours.

The problem is, when the tents begin to shrink and actually fall off, it's about 50/50 chance that he'll respond to treatment.

Text me and I'll help if you need it. 713-504-2100

Here's a few I've had that ended up like yours:

 

[Nuno Magalhães]

Hi.
Thanks for your quick answer.
I also think it is stressed, but what I really would like to know is what is causing this stress. I also thought of the possibility of the corals, but they aren't near from it. It can also be the clowns. Sometimes they are really aggressive, but I've seen wild nems in nature and clowns always behave like that.
I can't text you, because I live in Portugal, not in the states. But I'm glad to send you an e-mail, if I can. Is it possible to treat it in situ? I'm a bit afraid of removing it from its rock.

 

[Reefahholic]

There's really no way to know what caused it. It could have easily been your water quality too. Even if your SPS are thriving. It could be your lighting. Some mags are light sensitive. It's usually after they're sick though. If you run strong light long enough, it will deflate one.

Take him and the rock out.

250mg of Cipro to 10/G. 7 days.

 

[Reefahholic]

In the search box above...type in "Anemone Protocol"

Third link down:

"Treatment Protocol for Sick Anemones"

Just follow the protocol.

 

[Nuno Magalhães]

Thanks.
I´ve seen your protocol for treating sick anemones before, I'm going to find Cipro and prepare a tank.
The problem is if the cause remains, its going to be sick again.
Lights are LEDS, from Tropical Marine Centre, and I don´t think the light is the problem. It moves sometimes, and never hides in the shade like some BTA that I've had. The lights are the same as before, ant the clams and the corals are fine and growing.
Anyway, there must be something that is disturbing it, I would love to know what is it.
I forgot to tell another thing. I have seen some sick nems before, and all of them have an open mouth. Mine has a tight closed mouth, that reacts and opens when I feed it. Do you think it is really an infection?

 

[Reefahholic]

That protocol was put together by a friend of mine (Minh). It was recently published in Reef Hobbyist Magazine. People have been treating anemones for a long time, but there has never been a die hard anemone hobbyist with the credential "MD" behind their name who has put a treatment protocol together for sick anemones. I work in the medical field also and have been side by side with antibiotic therapy for about 10 years now. I've kinda tweaked the protocol for myself and what I believe works best for me personally. However, I don't deviate much from what Minh has put together originally. The protocol works very well. Things that I personally do different now are 100% water changes. I rarely do 50% anymore. Water changes are key, especially for Gigantea. I've had to do as many as 3 100% water changes a day to keep a few Gigantea alive. This is why I only use 5/g tanks now to treat in. Rarely I'll use a 10/G for a huge mag or gig. This saves a lot of water and salt. I've also started to treat with normal dose of Septra. The DS (double strength) has caused some adverse reactions for a few of my S. Gigantea's after the 5 day mark. I believe it's too strong for some while others do fine. So cutting the dose in half has worked better for me with some Gigantea. I've also noticed after treating multiple Magnifica and Gigantea that the Magnifica definetely do better with Ciprofloxacin while the Gigantea do better with Septra/Bactrim. I tell everybody who's asking about Gigantea treatment to use Septra now.


As far the cause of why your Magnifica got stressed will be hard to pinpoint. These anemones are so sensitive to even the smallest changes. I've seen people with large tanks packed with SPS and Clams that are all thriving, yet the Magnifica or Gigantea in the tank are deflated with mouth wide open.

Allelopathy has been thought by many to be a potential cause of some anemones who succumb to infection. I'm a believer of Allelopathy, although I'm not exactly sure which anemones are responsible. I do believe Haddoni's can possibly be on the list to watch. My mags will sting them and normally don't tolerate them very close. They will tolerate most Gigantea's though. Minh has gig, mag, and haddoni. He's currently not having any issues. I do believe now that water volume helps. I've noticed less issues since upgrading from a 90/G to 225/G. I haven't had any Haddoni's in the tank either though. Only gig, mag, and BTA.

I've also noticed that the SPS I have in my tank can do well, but some of my anemones will be deflated. If I do a water change, they inflate again. A lot without getting infection. So something in the water column seems to irritate them while the coral are thriving. It could be PO4, Trace Elements, Etc.


Like I mention above, depending on what lighting your running and the health of your anemones, excessive light exposure can possibly cause deflation with some while others do fine.

Going back to a mag that has lost its tents with tight mouth. As you see from the pictures above, I've had two that got into this state of merely existing. The original cause for both was definetely infection. If untreated I believe some try to fight off infection for so long that they end up loosing their tentacles and fall into this state of barely surviving, but they don't grow and don't die either. During this time I've noticed a few of mine try to regrow their tents, but ended up loosing them. I think this was due to the instability of my water quality. When the system was running really stable and I made very little changes, the tents started to grow. If you look at your mag above, he's actually lost most of his tents and started to grow then back slightly. This tells me that he's trying to recover but is too weak or sick.

So yeah, just treat him with Cipro and see if you notice a change. Like I mentioned before, he may or may not respond. Once they get into this state it's about 50/50.

One question....Are you running carbon? How? What kind? How much?

Good luck with him.

Thanks.
I´ve seen your protocol for treating sick anemones before, I'm going to find Cipro and prepare a tank.
The problem is if the cause remains, its going to be sick again.
Lights are LEDS, from Tropical Marine Centre, and I don´t think the light is the problem. It moves sometimes, and never hides in the shade like some BTA that I've had. The lights are the same as before, ant the clams and the corals are fine and growing.
Anyway, there must be something that is disturbing it, I would love to know what is it.
I forgot to tell another thing. I have seen some sick nems before, and all of them have an open mouth. Mine has a tight closed mouth, that reacts and opens when I feed it. Do you think it is really an infection?

 

[Reefahholic]

One thing I forgot to add.

When a Magnifica gets happy and everything in the tank is stable, he will rarely move.

If he's moving, it's because something if off or bothering him.

 

[Nuno Magalhães]

Hi. Thanks again for your comments, I'm going to find the antibiotic (here its not so easy, they are not sold unless you have a prescription).
I usually don't run carbon, because I think it takes lots of good stuff from the water. But in this situation, it might be a good idea to run in the tank, after the treatment, when the anemone is back in the tank. What do you recommend me to do? How long?
About the moving, that was the first sign: it was quiet during 3 years. It only moved in the last 6 months or so.

 

[Reefahholic]

I get all my Cipro on EBay from overseas, you should be able to as well.

I would definetely run some carbon for 3-4 weeks and do some water changes in DT before he goes back in while your treating him.

What kind of coral do you have in the system? Any other nems?

Try to think back when he started to move. Anything that you added or did during that time.

I'm keeping a log with my new system. I've been writing down everything from treatment times, new anemones introduced and dates, if a nem deflates I test all the water parameters and log it. I'm trying to pinpoint patterns.

One thing that will always have me guessing is why a S. Gigantea deflates out of the blue for no apparent reason. This happens with others who are in the same tank beside him and they are fully inflated and doing well.

Another thing we need to really do soon is culture a dying Gigantea that's not responding to antibiotic therapy and find the pathogen responsible for the death of these wonderful animals. So many questions I have can be solved by one culture and stain.

This is the question that wakes me up at night. Which is responsible for these deaths? It's it gram positive or gram negative? We know most are gram negative, but could it be that a few are gram positive?

Are they aerobic and anaerobic?

Check this out: We really need to know this information.

Aerobic and anaerobic bacteria can be identified by growing them in test tubes of thioglycollate broth:
1: Obligate aerobes need oxygen because they cannot ferment or respire anaerobically. They gather at the top of the tube where the oxygen concentration is highest.
2: Obligate anaerobes are poisoned by oxygen, so they gather at the bottom of the tube where the oxygen concentration is lowest.
3: Facultative anaerobes can grow with or without oxygen because they can metabolise energy aerobically or anaerobically. They gather mostly at the top because aerobic respiration generates more ATP than either fermentation or anaerobic respiration.
4: Microaerophiles need oxygen because they cannot ferment or respire anaerobically. However, they are poisoned by high concentrations of oxygen. They gather in the upper part of the test tube but not the very top.
5: Aerotolerant organisms do not require oxygen as they metabolise energy anaerobically. Unlike obligate anaerobes however, they are not poisoned by oxygen. They can be found evenly spread throughout the test tube.
An anaerobic organism or anaerobe is any organism that does not require oxygen for growth. It may react negatively or even die if oxygen is present. An anaerobic organism may be unicellular (e.g. protozoans,[1] bacteria[2]) or multicellular (e.g. Nereid (worm) polychaetes,[3] juvenile Trichinella spiralis (pork worm) parasites[4])[discuss]. For practical purposes, there are three categories of anaerobe:

Obligate anaerobes, which are harmed by the presence of oxygen.[5][6]
Aerotolerant organisms, which cannot use oxygen for growth, but tolerate its presence.[7]
Facultative anaerobes, which can grow without oxygen but use oxygen if it is present

 

[Nuno Magalhães]

Hey!
I talked to "my" vet and manage a prescription, already have Cipro.
I'll start after Xmas with the treatment. Meanwhile, I'll do some more water changes than usual in DT, use carbon and perhaps UV.
I have a friend who said the stress cause might be physical aggression by the clowns. They are three, and can be pretty rough, especially when they have eggs (all the time, almost). I only have this nem, perhaps if I find other, the clowns go to the new one...
Corals, I have Zooanthus, Discossomas, Seriatopora calendulum, Montipora, Caulastrea, Favia, a very small frag of Euphyllia, and Goniastrea. I also have Xenias. Use to be a lot of Xenias, like a plague, but now they reduced, and are only a few. The only coral that are near, but not next to, is Seriatopora and Montipora.

 

[Nuno Magalhães]

I really think what you are doing is important, having some scientific method and try to understand what factors cause stress in these animals.
There is a lot of stuff that we still don't know about having cnidaria in captivity. I really like sea anemones, the whole idea of having a reef aquarium was to have a nem with clowns. The very odd fact is that I never have success whith BTA, and when I bought this magnifica, 4 years ago, it went along very well. That is not at all logic, because in theory, magnificas are way more difficult than BTA. Sometimes not everything is according to logic...

 

[Reefahholic]

I really think what you are doing is important, having some scientific method and try to understand what factors cause stress in these animals.
There is a lot of stuff that we still don't know about having cnidaria in captivity. I really like sea anemones, the whole idea of having a reef aquarium was to have a nem with clowns. The very odd fact is that I never have success whith BTA, and when I bought this magnifica, 4 years ago, it went along very well. That is not at all logic, because in theory, magnificas are way more difficult than BTA. Sometimes not everything is according to logic...

I'm not a big fan of BTA's. I like an anemone that looks great all the time and doesn't change how it looks. BTA's are all different. A lot of them constantly deflate and reinflate. Drives me crazy. My Magnifica always look great. The gigs are just a nem that will perplex you, but once you get the hang of them and stabilize one, they are a very special animal. Some can really be hardy. I've seen people get extremely lucky with them and didn't realize how difficult they can be.

 

[Reefahholic]

Hey!
I talked to "my" vet and manage a prescription, already have Cipro.
I'll start after Xmas with the treatment. Meanwhile, I'll do some more water changes than usual in DT, use carbon and perhaps UV.
I have a friend who said the stress cause might be physical aggression by the clowns. They are three, and can be pretty rough, especially when they have eggs (all the time, almost). I only have this nem, perhaps if I find other, the clowns go to the new one...
Corals, I have Zooanthus, Discossomas, Seriatopora calendulum, Montipora, Caulastrea, Favia, a very small frag of Euphyllia, and Goniastrea. I also have Xenias. Use to be a lot of Xenias, like a plague, but now they reduced, and are only a few. The only coral that are near, but not next to, is Seriatopora and Montipora.

Doesn't sound like you have anything too crazy. I think the plan sounds good but I would start treatment earlier. The sooner the better.

 

[Nuno Magalhães]

Hello.
I arrived back home from Xmas today and I just started the treatment now. It's late night here, and I started with lights off.
Should I give the same light period as usual? What about light intensity?

 

[Reefahholic]

Hello.
I arrived back home from Xmas today and I just started the treatment now. It's late night here, and I started with lights off.
Should I give the same light period as usual? What about light intensity?

I would keep the lights off for the first 24 hours to keep antibiotic strong and then increase to low level. Afterwards, I would run them for 6-8 hrs daily on low setting. Only for photosynthesis purposes.