Problems with very high nitrates, Nopox not reducing them.

[Lee074]

Hi everyone,

I’m having some crazy problems with high nitrates in my tank, I’m hoping someone is able to help me please.

I’ve got a 500l (120 gallon) tank which I set up a year ago. For the first 8 months or so everything went great, I never had any issues with nitrates or phosphates, other parameters generally always inline without me having to dose or really do anything. Nitrates never registered above 5 or so, phosphates usually around 0.1, never more than 0.2. Corals were thriving, had lots of sps which were all growing well. I mostly stuck to my 10% weekly water change and always siphoned my gravel, kept up with regular maintenance. I had a few bouts of cyano and some bryopsis, and impatience got the better of me. I used Chemiclean a couple of times for the cyano, and then Flux RX for the bryopsis. I also switched salt at one point (directly after the Flux RX) to Aquaforest Probiotic salt as they didn’t have any of my regular in stock. Following the recommendation for flux rx, I did a 20% water change using the probiotic salt.

At some point after this, things started going horribly wrong. I had gotten lazy about testing nitrates and phosphate because my levels were never anything to worry about. But I started losing all my sps - their tips would get a kind of brownish algae on them and then they’d just bleach out. I tested everything and was horrified to see nitrates between 50-100 and phosphate at 0.5. I enlisted the help of a friend who’s been reefing for 25+ years and keeps a very successful 20,000 litre system, so very experienced. He suggested starting on nopox but not doing major water changes. We started very slow about a month ago, starting on 1ml a day for 2 weeks, gradually increasing to 3ml a day (he was worried about loading up too much carbon in the system and my skimmer not being able to take it out quick enough). After a week or so nitrate was still around 50, but phos started dropping. All other parameters are inline (calcium slightly high), phosphates now sitting at 0.08 but nitrates haven’t budged. At the same time as starting Nopox, I drained the sump and gave it a really good clean, added a flow pump to the sump to get more movement in there, took a pump to the rocks in the display too to blast off all the detritis and just generally tried to get everything as clean as I could. I also added 4 more maxspect nano block things to the sump to make 6 total.

I’m now doing 20% water changes, last weekend we did about 30% using water from his tank (1 nitrate) and I tested the next day and it had gone right back up to 50 nitrates. His conclusion is that through some combination of the chemiclean, flux rx and then the probiotic salt, I’ve destroyed my biological filtration and this is what is taking so long to correct. He thinks the nitrates and phosphates spiked so much because I carried on feeding etc as normal but not testing to notice that they were creeping up. It was a 3 week period from when I last checked and nitrate was around 5, to when I checked and saw 50-100. He also thinks it's possible that the nitrates have built up and have been absorbed into the rock.

I’ll try to list anything that may be relevant. My set up is Red Sea Peninsula 500, Bubble Magus filter roller, pretty big Reeftek skimmer, UV steriliser. I’ve got a fair amount of bubble algae growing in crevices in the rock. I’ve noticed lots of little bubbles on a certain type of corraline algae in the tank. Right now I’m not feeding corals at all and trying to reduce fish feeding a little. I’ve also dosed a little Aquavitro Remediation to try to improve my bacterial population. My tank isn't heavily stocked with fish, and the ones I have are mostly pretty small. I have mostly artificial rock, with a little natural rock.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can improve the biological filtration - I’m still losing some corals (oddly, mostly zoas, other anemones and lps seem ok)?

Thank you very much.

 

[Cool tangs]

I carbon dose myself.

I started with nopox with not much luck, i system is about the same size i was dozing about 20ml a day.

I switched to household vinegar and abour 2months later all my nutrients bottemed out.
I dose 20ml daily.

Its a very slow process to bring them down, test kits sucks in high range testing. All up from starting with nopox i would of bren dosing for about 3 months before i started to see results

Hope this helps, oh i also fed every second day whilst i waited

 

[Bouncingsoul39]

Stop dosing chemicals. Feed only a tiny amount every other day. Tiny as in the food is eaten and gone in 30 seconds Or less. Wait one month and then test nitrate. One thing I want to point out is that nitrate test kits are known to be inaccurate. Are you and friend using the same brand kit? Try a different kit or use his if yours is different.
main thing is that you’ve taken all the appropriate steps. Time to step back and stop messing with it and let the tank do it’s thing.

 

[Lee074]

Stop dosing chemicals. Feed only a tiny amount every other day. Tiny as in the food is eaten and gone in 30 seconds Or less. Wait one month and then test nitrate. One thing I want to point out is that nitrate test kits are known to be inaccurate. Are you and friend using the same brand kit? Try a different kit or use his if yours is different.
main thing is that you’ve taken all the appropriate steps. Time to step back and stop messing with it and let the tank do it’s thing.

Thank you for the response. You think I should stop the Nopox? Everything else has stopped, I don't think I'll touch chemiclean or anything again. Have learnt my lesson in that regard. I've tested on both Salifert and Hanna, friend checked on his Salifert too.

 

[TCoach]

I'm in a similar boat.

I had PO4 up at 2.5ppm and Nitrates pushing 100ppm. Here is what I've done to reduce them. It is a slow process as I don't want to shock my corals (softies and a couple LPS).

1. A couple 30% water changes to quickly bring numbers down.
2. Started a Chaeto refugium in the first chamber of my sump (after filter sock)
3. Started using Bio Pellet reactor (feeds from return chamber and exits to refugium.
4. Started using small amount of GFO for the phosphate (35-40 g of GFO). Reactor pulls from middle chamber (where skimmer is) and exits to refugium. I'm trying to be very careful with the GFO as it is very effective. (on second dose of this)

Tested water on Wednesday, and here are my parameters:

 

[WVNed]

Microbacter 7
Complex system of non-pathogenic aerobic and anaerobic microbes, as well as natural enzymes, specifically formulated to establish biological filtration in new aquarium set-ups, and to enhance the rate of nitrification, denitrification, and organic waste degradation in marine and freshwater aquaria through complete nutrient remineralization.
Supplied in a state of suspended animation for maximum longevity.
Formulated utilizing extensive data compiled by microbiologists.

NoPox removes both nitrates and phosphates. It also has to have both to work. If your phosphates bottom out you have to dose them to keep them above 0.1 until the nitrates come down.

Neophos

• Used in conjunction with MICROBACTER7 and REEF BIOFUEL or KATALYST, enables natural nitrogen uptake to take place in systems with inadequate phosphorus content, lowering ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate concentrations without the use of chemical filtration media and without resorting to polluting the system with organic material to raise the phosphorus content.

It is possible you have nitrites in your system. Some test kits are fooled by this and read the level of nitrites x 100 as the level of nitrates. This is because the test converts the nitrates to nitrites and actually measures them expecting none to be in the system. There are threads on R2R about this.

If you are going to use NoPox, use the correct amount. Don't use 1/3 or 1/4th the dose and say it doesnt work.
I have be been using 48ml (3ml per 25 gallons, 400 gallons) for a while on a doser. It works.
I am now phasing it out in favor of a sulfur denitrator. I have been buying Nopox in the 5 liter size.
You should be using something like 10-15ml a day in 120 gallons with nitrates of 50 and phosphates above 0.1, if they are really that high.
Yes, you have to continue testing and watch what happens. Then adjust your dose accordingly when nitrates approach 10 and anything below ten requires careful monitoring.

 

[Uncle99]

One or two marine pure blocks, pre-seeded with Microbacter 7 for 24 hours before adding to your system.
Continue normal Nopox dose.
This will drastically increase the surface area available for your bacteria to live.

They do not leach aluminum into your system.

 

[Bj’s Reef]

I’m having the same problem so I’m going to follow along to see what happens.

 

[Dan_P]

Hi everyone,

I’m having some crazy problems with high nitrates in my tank, I’m hoping someone is able to help me please.

I’ve got a 500l (120 gallon) tank which I set up a year ago. For the first 8 months or so everything went great, I never had any issues with nitrates or phosphates, other parameters generally always inline without me having to dose or really do anything. Nitrates never registered above 5 or so, phosphates usually around 0.1, never more than 0.2. Corals were thriving, had lots of sps which were all growing well. I mostly stuck to my 10% weekly water change and always siphoned my gravel, kept up with regular maintenance. I had a few bouts of cyano and some bryopsis, and impatience got the better of me. I used Chemiclean a couple of times for the cyano, and then Flux RX for the bryopsis. I also switched salt at one point (directly after the Flux RX) to Aquaforest Probiotic salt as they didn’t have any of my regular in stock. Following the recommendation for flux rx, I did a 20% water change using the probiotic salt.

At some point after this, things started going horribly wrong. I had gotten lazy about testing nitrates and phosphate because my levels were never anything to worry about. But I started losing all my sps - their tips would get a kind of brownish algae on them and then they’d just bleach out. I tested everything and was horrified to see nitrates between 50-100 and phosphate at 0.5. I enlisted the help of a friend who’s been reefing for 25+ years and keeps a very successful 20,000 litre system, so very experienced. He suggested starting on nopox but not doing major water changes. We started very slow about a month ago, starting on 1ml a day for 2 weeks, gradually increasing to 3ml a day (he was worried about loading up too much carbon in the system and my skimmer not being able to take it out quick enough). After a week or so nitrate was still around 50, but phos started dropping. All other parameters are inline (calcium slightly high), phosphates now sitting at 0.08 but nitrates haven’t budged. At the same time as starting Nopox, I drained the sump and gave it a really good clean, added a flow pump to the sump to get more movement in there, took a pump to the rocks in the display too to blast off all the detritis and just generally tried to get everything as clean as I could. I also added 4 more maxspect nano block things to the sump to make 6 total.

I’m now doing 20% water changes, last weekend we did about 30% using water from his tank (1 nitrate) and I tested the next day and it had gone right back up to 50 nitrates. His conclusion is that through some combination of the chemiclean, flux rx and then the probiotic salt, I’ve destroyed my biological filtration and this is what is taking so long to correct. He thinks the nitrates and phosphates spiked so much because I carried on feeding etc as normal but not testing to notice that they were creeping up. It was a 3 week period from when I last checked and nitrate was around 5, to when I checked and saw 50-100. He also thinks it's possible that the nitrates have built up and have been absorbed into the rock.

I’ll try to list anything that may be relevant. My set up is Red Sea Peninsula 500, Bubble Magus filter roller, pretty big Reeftek skimmer, UV steriliser. I’ve got a fair amount of bubble algae growing in crevices in the rock. I’ve noticed lots of little bubbles on a certain type of corraline algae in the tank. Right now I’m not feeding corals at all and trying to reduce fish feeding a little. I’ve also dosed a little Aquavitro Remediation to try to improve my bacterial population. My tank isn't heavily stocked with fish, and the ones I have are mostly pretty small. I have mostly artificial rock, with a little natural rock.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can improve the biological filtration - I’m still losing some corals (oddly, mostly zoas, other anemones and lps seem ok)?

Thank you very much.

One observation is that carbon dosing was no where large enough to see a reduction in nitrate. Also you would not have noticed a reduction in nitrate because the color intensity is too high. Carbon dosing works, you just quit too early.

There is no mystery about the high phosphate and nitrate. More is going into the aquarium than is coming out. The high phosphate and nitrate could be affecting coral health, but consider other factors as well.

As for biological filtration, yours is fine. If it wasn’t you would have high ammonia levels. The suggestion to check for nitrie is a good one. Whenever you have high nitrate, confirm that nitrite is not present, otherwise the nitrate test results can be misleading.

Don’t expect a quick turn around for your system. You might spend another year repairing it.

 

[reefingaz]

29 replies and 29 different responses. I think it shows several things works and some don’t for people. I have a 250 tank stocked with lots of fish and corals. I feed super heavy. My nitrate was over 100 at one pint. No water change would lower it. I started dosing vinegar and over a 2 month period got up to like 65ml a day. Stopped testing and in 4 months my nitrate was down to zero. So much so that I lowered my dosage to 20 ml a day a now I’m also adding 7 ml of nitrate back to my tank to keep not from being at zero. Vinegar worked for nitrate but did nothing to Po4. Now I have that under control as well

 

[Lee074]

Microbacter 7
Complex system of non-pathogenic aerobic and anaerobic microbes, as well as natural enzymes, specifically formulated to establish biological filtration in new aquarium set-ups, and to enhance the rate of nitrification, denitrification, and organic waste degradation in marine and freshwater aquaria through complete nutrient remineralization.
Supplied in a state of suspended animation for maximum longevity.
Formulated utilizing extensive data compiled by microbiologists.

NoPox removes both nitrates and phosphates. It also has to have both to work. If your phosphates bottom out you have to dose them to keep them above 0.1 until the nitrates come down.

Neophos

• Used in conjunction with MICROBACTER7 and REEF BIOFUEL or KATALYST, enables natural nitrogen uptake to take place in systems with inadequate phosphorus content, lowering ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate concentrations without the use of chemical filtration media and without resorting to polluting the system with organic material to raise the phosphorus content.

It is possible you have nitrites in your system. Some test kits are fooled by this and read the level of nitrites x 100 as the level of nitrates. This is because the test converts the nitrates to nitrites and actually measures them expecting none to be in the system. There are threads on R2R about this.

If you are going to use NoPox, use the correct amount. Don't use 1/3 or 1/4th the dose and say it doesnt work.
I have be been using 48ml (3ml per 25 gallons, 400 gallons) for a while on a doser. It works.
I am now phasing it out in favor of a sulfur denitrator. I have been buying Nopox in the 5 liter size.
You should be using something like 10-15ml a day in 120 gallons with nitrates of 50 and phosphates above 0.1, if they are really that high.
Yes, you have to continue testing and watch what happens. Then adjust your dose accordingly when nitrates approach 10 and anything below ten requires careful monitoring.

Thanks for your response. I was following advice with the low Nopox dosage, the advice was that if my skimmer couldn't remove the nutrients quick enough I'd be left with too much ethanol in my system. I've incrreased this now and will continue to increase if necessary.

We don't get Microbacter7 here unfortunately, I'd need to order on Amazon which will take 3-4 weeks. I've added some Remediation and MicrobeLift which are also bacteria products - I'm not sure what the difference between those and MB7 is. I'll keep an eye on phosphates though, tested this morning and they are 0.06 now so getting quite low. I can't find Neophos here either but will try find an equivalent product.

 

[Lee074]

One observation is that carbon dosing was no where large enough to see a reduction in nitrate. Also you would not have noticed a reduction in nitrate because the color intensity is too high. Carbon dosing works, you just quit too early.

There is no mystery about the high phosphate and nitrate. More is going into the aquarium than is coming out. The high phosphate and nitrate could be affecting coral health, but consider other factors as well.

As for biological filtration, yours is fine. If it wasn’t you would have high ammonia levels. The suggestion to check for nitrie is a good one. Whenever you have high nitrate, confirm that nitrite is not present, otherwise the nitrate test results can be misleading.

Don’t expect a quick turn around for your system. You might spend another year repairing it.

Thanks for your reply. I've raised the Nopox and will continue to increase.

I'm not sure why you say there's no mystery about the high phos and nitrate. There was a very sudden huge spike, which tells me something went wrong, it wasn't a gradual increase of nutrients. No further livestock was added and feeding levels didn't increase, I just didn't test nitrate for about 3 weeks and it jumped from 5 to over 50. We believe that in that time (through that combination of meds and AF probio salt) severe damage was caused to the biological filtration. So while I wasn't testing, and was just assuming waste was being processed as before, nitrates and phosphates were accumulating.

I checked nitrite - was pretty undetectable.

 

[Dan_P]

Thanks for your reply. I've raised the Nopox and will continue to increase.

I'm not sure why you say there's no mystery about the high phos and nitrate. There was a very sudden huge spike, which tells me something went wrong, it wasn't a gradual increase of nutrients. No further livestock was added and feeding levels didn't increase, I just didn't test nitrate for about 3 weeks and it jumped from 5 to over 50. We believe that in that time (through that combination of meds and AF probio salt) severe damage was caused to the biological filtration. So while I wasn't testing, and was just assuming waste was being processed as before, nitrates and phosphates were accumulating.

I checked nitrite - was pretty undetectable.

Sorry if I sounded flippant about your issue.

Did the jump in nitrates correspond with the medications you were adding to your system? What were you putting in and how much would you say? Could they have directly throughbeing metabolized or indirectly by killing a large part of the aqyarium’s biofilm contributed to the increase in nitrate and phosphate? I ask this because I grow aquarium biofilms for testing and I have accidentally stressed them which resulted in the release of ammonia.

 

[Lee074]

Sorry if I sounded flippant about your issue.

Did the jump in nitrates correspond with the medications you were adding to your system? What were you putting in and how much would you say? Could they have directly throughbeing metabolized or indirectly by killing a large part of the aqyarium’s biofilm contributed to the increase in nitrate and phosphate? I ask this because I grow aquarium biofilms for testing and I have accidentally stressed them which resulted in the release of ammonia.

Hi Dan,

No problem, you didn’t sound flippant, I’m just trying to understand what went wrong (so I don’t do it again) and how to fix it now. My assumption is that I damaged the biofilm but I wouldn’t know how to prove this. Out of curiosity, how did you accidentally stress the biofilm?

I used Chemiclean several times, following the directions as closely as possible. I then used Flux RX for the bryopsis, again followed instructions I think it’s 1 large scoop per 25 gallons. It’s possible I made an error with these, no way to tell now. After the 2 weeks or so the Flux RX was in, I did a 20 or 30% wc using AF probiotic salt. A couple of weeks after that was when I started losing sps. I never measure Ammonia so I have no idea if any was released, fish are all strong and healthy, my water chemistry issues don’t seem to have affected them at all.

Now I’m dosing Nopox to try bring N + P down. It’s worked beautifully on Phos, down from 0.55 to about 0.08 but nitrate seems unchanged at around or over 50. I don’t understand why the P is going down but not N.

Thanks again for your help, I’m very grateful.

 

[Dan_P]

Hi Dan,

No problem, you didn’t sound flippant, I’m just trying to understand what went wrong (so I don’t do it again) and how to fix it now. My assumption is that I damaged the biofilm but I wouldn’t know how to prove this. Out of curiosity, how did you accidentally stress the biofilm?

I used Chemiclean several times, following the directions as closely as possible. I then used Flux RX for the bryopsis, again followed instructions I think it’s 1 large scoop per 25 gallons. It’s possible I made an error with these, no way to tell now. After the 2 weeks or so the Flux RX was in, I did a 20 or 30% wc using AF probiotic salt. A couple of weeks after that was when I started losing sps. I never measure Ammonia so I have no idea if any was released, fish are all strong and healthy, my water chemistry issues don’t seem to have affected them at all.

Now I’m dosing Nopox to try bring N + P down. It’s worked beautifully on Phos, down from 0.55 to about 0.08 but nitrate seems unchanged at around or over 50. I don’t understand why the P is going down but not N.

Thanks again for your help, I’m very grateful.

Here are some additional thoughts that might be of use.

I am always surprised when I measure the nitrate consumption of macro algae and algae and cyanobacteria biofilms. I suspect that when you killed off the cyanobacteria and bryopsis, you removed two important nitrogen consumers in your system. In addition, the death of these two consumers could have released organic material that was consumed by bacteria and converted to ammonia and then nitrate. This scenario could easily have result in a large and rapid increase in nitrate concentration. In the import-export equation, the export part was choked off.

My second thought is to keep your phosphate above zero while carbon dosing. The furiously growing bacteria can deplete PO4, stop growing and quit consuming nitrate.

Dan

 

[Lee074]

Here are some additional thoughts that might be of use.

I am always surprised when I measure the nitrate consumption of macro algae and algae and cyanobacteria biofilms. I suspect that when you killed off the cyanobacteria and bryopsis, you removed two important nitrogen consumers in your system. In addition, the death of these two consumers could have released organic material that was consumed by bacteria and converted to ammonia and then nitrate. This scenario could easily have result in a large and rapid increase in nitrate concentration. In the import-export equation, the export part was choked off.

My second thought is to keep your phosphate above zero while carbon dosing. The furiously growing bacteria can deplete PO4, stop growing and quit consuming nitrate.

Dan

Hi Dan, It's certainly possible that the bryopsis was giving a false reading earlier, and then caused a spike. But I didn't really have that much bryopsis so I'd be surprised if it could have made my nitrates jump so high. Re the Phosphate, thanks, yes I'm adding a little phos now to keep the level around 0.1. Good news on the nitrates, I just tested and they are down to 30 (new Hanna checker) so that's great news. I've upped the Nopox and added some bacteria so I imagine that's helping.

 

[ultraArcite]

I know this post has been dead for awhile but I wanted to thank everyone who answered! Although I'm not OP, I found all this information incredibly helpful. @Lee074 were you able to get the system stable and happy?