Proper dosing of Coppersafe

[Brew12]

One more thing I wanted to pass along... I wanted to know how the chelating agent might effect the Chemetrics test.:

• Me: One more question. If measuring chelated copper caused errors with the tests, would the test results likely measure high, low, or would they be erratic?
• Melanie Technical rep: The bias would be low if the chelated copper in the sample does not readily react with the test kit reagent.

If Melanie is correct, then any higher than expected Chemetrics readings aren’t a result of measuring chelated Coppersafe vs. measuring non-chelated copper. Therefore, my conclusion is that either API is accurate, Chemectrics is a $70 piece of crap because it measures twice of what API measures, and Fritz is wrong about API; or Chemectrics is accurate within its margin of error and likely more accurate or at least telling than API. Clear as mud.

It would be nice if there was a better way, but I have no idea what it would be. They only thing I know to do is make my own 1.8ppm standard based on Fritz claims of 1.25ml/g being 1.17 and hope the results are repeatable with an API test set.

To the best of my knowledge that has worked for me but I can't be sure. I'll probably know after this weekend since I'm tearing down my tank and I'm sure it will stress the fish. If I have ich or velvet in my system I'm about to find out.

 

[Crashjack]

It would be nice if there was a better way, but I have no idea what it would be. They only thing I know to do is make my own 1.8ppm standard based on Fritz claims of 1.25ml/g being 1.17 and hope the results are repeatable with an API test set.

To the best of my knowledge that has worked for me but I can't be sure. I'll probably know after this weekend since I'm tearing down my tank and I'm sure it will stress the fish. If I have ich or velvet in my system I'm about to find out.

It's "pick your poison", LITERALLY! I use CP when I can. Right now, I have a Melanurus wrasse that is extremely skittish though feeding. The two fairies I quarantined with copper last time also got a little skittish, but there were two of them and two yellow watchman gobies. This wrasse is all alone because the two fairies I got with it died prior to medication, even though they had fed initially. My hope is that the deaths were caused by flukes as I've now done two rounds of GC. If velvet or ich, I can only hope my copper is at therapeutic levels. My logic is to rely on Chemetrics measuring 3 ppm as the margin of error is within range. My second check is API at 1.5 ppm as best I can tell. Now, that was dosing Coppersafe at 1.5ml/gal, with some small additions after that. I'm just afraid to push any further with this wrasse.

 

[Brew12]

It's "pick your poison", LITERALLY! I use CP when I can. Right now, I have a Melanurus wrasse that is extremely skittish though feeding. The two fairies I quarantined with copper last time also got a little skittish, but there were two of them and two yellow watchman gobies. This wrasse is all alone because the two fairies I got with it died prior to medication, even though they had fed initially. My hope is that the deaths were caused by flukes as I've now done two rounds of GC. If velvet or ich, I can only hope my copper is at therapeutic levels. My logic is to rely on Chemetrics measuring 3 ppm as the margin of error is within range. My second check is API at 1.5 ppm as best I can tell. Now, that was dosing Coppersafe at 1.5ml/gal, with some small additions after that. I'm just afraid to push any further with this wrasse.

At the end of the day, all any of us can do is give it our best effort. You have already gone far above and beyond what most are willing to do.

 

[lagatbezan]

I just finished reading this whole thread. So basically no definite way of knowing exactly what dose of coppersafe to use, nor which test kits are accurate. its basically a big guessing game of how much to use and weather its in the therapeutic level or even if the bottle contains true consistent copper levels i guess.
I was gonna use it this weekend for a butterfly but now I'm not sure what to do. I wish I was able to get CP but that has proven to be impossible

 

[pdiehm]

What I gather is 1.5ml/gallon is the low end of the sweetspot. Probably 1.7ml is better, but since no one knows what the level is, it's hard to say. As mentioned earlier, a guy locally uses 5ml/4gallon and has never had any issues with ich or velvet over 20 years.

Is there any fish that don't handle copper safe well? That we know of?

 

[Brew12]

What I gather is 1.5ml/gallon is the low end of the sweetspot. Probably 1.7ml is better, but since no one knows what the level is, it's hard to say. As mentioned earlier, a guy locally uses 5ml/4gallon and has never had any issues with ich or velvet over 20 years.

Is there any fish that don't handle copper safe well? That we know of?

This chart is a great reference.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/fish-and-treatment-guidelines-with-chart.283450/

 

[Humblefish]

I'm gonna contact the people who make "Copper Power" to see what they say about which test kit to use: http://gocopperpower.com/

 

[Radman73]

It would be nice if there was a better way, but I have no idea what it would be. They only thing I know to do is make my own 1.8ppm standard based on Fritz claims of 1.25ml/g being 1.17 and hope the results are repeatable with an API test set.

To the best of my knowledge that has worked for me but I can't be sure. I'll probably know after this weekend since I'm tearing down my tank and I'm sure it will stress the fish. If I have ich or velvet in my system I'm about to find out.

Agree 100%. That's why I loved your idea of creating a known dose and using that result as a reference. By measuring it in a known quantity of water with a known dose of copper it allows us to create that reference sample that we can refer to over time. This has been important for me since Copper Power recommends 2.5ppm and the API kit jumps from 2ppm to 4ppm and the color difference is extremely difficult to discern. Comparing a photo to a photo is much easier.

In the future, I'm just planning on measuring exactly how much water I put into the QT and dosing purely off that and compare what I get after 5-6 days of ramping it up to a newly made reference sample. I don't have any equipment that, IMO, would absorb copper and even if sand is present in a small amount for a fish it's impact should be minimal. I think we're much better off dosing to a known quantity rather than trying to chase a color. Absent anything that absorbs a significant amount of copper, we should be well within a range by dosing the recommended amount. I'll use the test to confirm that I'm close vs that I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be.

 

[Alpine926]

Guys, my clown trigger is healthy and ich-free after being completely covered in ich. I used coppersafe and dosed 1.25ml/gal per the instructions on the bottle. I marked the water level on the side of the tank with a sharpie and kept topping off water every day with RO/DI to keep the level consistent. When the water level dropped, I added RO/DI water.

About once a week I did a 50% water change with fresh saltwater that I added the 1.25ml/gal coppersafe to. Fed regularly and I didnt have any issues with ammonia in a bare-bottom 30g QT.

I never bothered using the test kits, just be consistent with your measurements and don't forget to replenish the coppersafe in your water change water. He was ich free in a matter of days but I left him in the tank for 3 weeks to ensure it was for sure gone!

My Conclusion: Coppersafe Works and you can use it as directed. It was super easy.

 

[solitude127]

What's the proper duration of therapeutic levels to ensure ich has been taken care of?

 

[Big G]

What's the proper duration of therapeutic levels to ensure ich has been taken care of?

30 days in the normal.

 

[drstardust]

I just noticed that my Coppersafe bottle has an expiration date of about a year from now. I never considered even looking before, as it does not make sense to me for copper to expire (aside from excess crystallization/etc). Cupramine bottles don't have an expiration date. Is there something special about Coppersafe/chelated copper that should lead me to adhere to this date? Or can I just keep an eye out for crystals as with other products?

 

[Big G]

I just noticed that my Coppersafe bottle has an expiration date of about a year from now. I never considered even looking before, as it does not make sense to me for copper to expire (aside from excess crystallization/etc). Cupramine bottles don't have an expiration date. Is there something special about Coppersafe/chelated copper that should lead me to adhere to this date? Or can I just keep an eye out for crystals as with other products?

I'm not a chemist but I know chemical bonds can and do weaken with time. Let's ask the chemist @Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[NowGlazeIT]

Imo these dates are most accurate when the meds or test kits remain unopened. After that I look for color changes or crystals like you mentioned or the experation date. Which ever comes first I guess

 

[4FordFamily]

Bump and heads up @Brew12 — @HotRocks has a new copper tester and is testing instructions on several bottles of coppersafe AND copperpower and today’s results are BAD — coppersafe instructions (which per this thread were light on therapeutic levels) are now HIGH. Dosing per bottle may actually kill, the opposite problem. We don’t know if ALL batches are this way he will test several.

@Humblefish, @melypr1985 @ngoodermuth @Big G @Maritimer, @HotRocks will post results tomorrow. New copper tester will be evaluated as well, and he will test three different bottles of coppersafe and 3 of copper power.

For the time being, tell everyone to test test test as they dose. We don’t know if this affects all coppersafe or not. Hot rocks and I have dusted batches of fish by assuming the bottle concentration of coppersafe was changed again. We saw it on our API test kits and had to confirm it. More tomorrow but it may be important to notate in this thread.

 

[drstardust]

Bump and heads up @Brew12 — @HotRocks has a new copper tester and is testing instructions on several bottles of coppersafe AND copperpower and today’s results are BAD — coppersafe instructions (which per this thread were light on therapeutic levels) are now HIGH. Dosing per bottle may actually kill, the opposite problem. We don’t know if ALL batches are this way he will test several.

@Humblefish, @melypr1985 @ngoodermuth @Big G @Maritimer, @HotRocks will post results tomorrow. New copper tester will be evaluated as well, and he will test three different bottles of coppersafe and 3 of copper power.

For the time being, tell everyone to test test test as they dose. We don’t know if this affects all coppersafe or not. Hot rocks and I have dusted batches of fish by assuming the bottle concentration of coppersafe was changed again. We saw it on our API test kits and had to confirm it. More tomorrow but it may be important to notate in this thread.

Very good to know! Please do keep us posted. Is this copper tester something that is readily available for a reasonable price?

 

[Brew12]

Bump and heads up @Brew12 — @HotRocks has a new copper tester and is testing instructions on several bottles of coppersafe AND copperpower and today’s results are BAD — coppersafe instructions (which per this thread were light on therapeutic levels) are now HIGH. Dosing per bottle may actually kill, the opposite problem. We don’t know if ALL batches are this way he will test several.

@Humblefish, @melypr1985 @ngoodermuth @Big G @Maritimer, @HotRocks will post results tomorrow. New copper tester will be evaluated as well, and he will test three different bottles of coppersafe and 3 of copper power.

For the time being, tell everyone to test test test as they dose. We don’t know if this affects all coppersafe or not. Hot rocks and I have dusted batches of fish by assuming the bottle concentration of coppersafe was changed again. We saw it on our API test kits and had to confirm it. More tomorrow but it may be important to notate in this thread.

Are we assuming that the Coppersafe concentration has change?

And can I ask, what test set is it?

I cringe at the thought that this could actually get more complicated. :mad:

 

[Humblefish]

I hate copper and these bungling mfgs that make it :mad:

 

[Big G]

Have 6 copper sensitive fish in QT right now at day 9 of therapeutic level with Coppersafe. What should have given me just over 1.5ppm, carefully dosed, ended up right at 2.0ppm by API Copper Test kit. The results have been consistently high with this same bottle of Coppersafe over the last few months. Always end up stopping dosing early.

 

[HotRocks]

Are we assuming that the Coppersafe concentration has change?

And can I ask, what test set is it?

I cringe at the thought that this could actually get more complicated. :mad:

Very likely will get more complicated. It definitely has for me. The main thing that will make this so difficult, is who knows if I just got a bad batch, or if fritz QC is slipping, or they have altogether changed the concentration. I just killed an entire batch of fish, due to the concentration on my bottle being almost 2.5 times the potency of 1.16-1.17. I did make the mistake of not testing while dosing with this particular batch of fish. Only because I always followed the protocol on this particular thread when dosing, i always have measured with syringes etc. And never had problems in the past. So I figured if I was measuring and with known past success, testing was only necessary when I got to therapeutic levels just to confirm I was where I wanted to be. I need to test more bottles that I have, and I need to order another bottle that is not within my same batch # to try to pin this down (I have one open bottle, and an unopened bottle, both have matching batch numbers). I have tested the open bottle thus far. Which Is same bottle that I used to basically poison my QT. What started all of this is I had a pretty healthy batch of fish and then all of the sudden they all quit eating and dropped dead within 72 hrs. I tested with my API kit and told @4FordFamily that I thought I had a copper problem, I was seeing what I believed to be 4.0 or above. I'm trying to keep this as brief as I can but provide enough detail to be logical and helpful.

My eyes aren't the greatest on the color charts for testing. I don't necessarily struggle with them but, I second guess myself. I knew regardless what I was seeing was way above the 1.75-2.0 that I was shooting for with my API test kit. This prompted me to do some research on the Hanna instruments high range copper checker. After contacting them via phone, they guaranteed accurate results with freshwater but not saltwater. They still had testing to complete to confirm what I was trying to accomplish would work. Mind you I was on vacation in the Bahamas with plenty of time to think about it (mainly my loss of well over 1 thousand dollars worth of fish, and I can deal with the loss, but my brain will not allow me to not know what the cause was for future prevention) and thought heck I will do my own testing. Meanwhile, @4FordFamily runs into the same issue, and around the same time I remember a post in the disease forum where another person was encountering the same thing but caught it while testing during ramp up, soooooo I got online and ordered two testers and a spare pack of reagents. They showed up today.

I went straight to work with them as soon as I got home from work this evening. I need more time to compile results and I want to duplicate the tests to make sure what I am providing is 100% accurate.

I also had made my mind up that I was switching to copper power for my next QT batch because all of this, the little bit of testing I did tonight will definitely have me switching.

So far tonight I tested my open bottle of copper safe (the one that was the cause of all of this). I also tested a brand new bottle of copper power. I have tested two ways because of Hanna telling me that results can't be guaranteed in saltwater.

1st test
1gallon RODI, 1.25ml syringe measured coppersafe to match dosing instructions on bottle. Result 2.99ppm

Test 2
Added salt to test 1 bucket, salinity of 1.024. Result 3.03ppm

Hanna states a .05 +/- so even in saltwater test results seem to be very accurate at this point.

Test 3
1gallon RODI with syringe measured 1.475ml of copper power Result 2.53ppm

Test 4
Add salt to salinity of 1.024 of test 3 bucket Result 2.49ppm

I also tested each of these with my API kit to confirm the the Hanna checker is accurate.

So. What I gain thus far is I definitely have a bad(potent/toxic) bottle of coppersafe (I will be testing all the coppersafe i can get my hands on within reason). Copper power has good quality control as their dosing instructions indicate a level of 2.5ppm, which is confirmed by my preliminary testing, and eventually we will hear from Hanna that the tester is deemed accurate in salt or fresh based on these results. Much more testing to come, and per @Humblefish recommendation, I will probably dose my first round of copper power up to 2.0ppm being that it is chelated copper and should be therapudic between 1.5-2.0. I will keep you all updated as I gather more results to validate this further. I don't want to cause a panic "yet". My advice if you are currently using or plan to continue to use coppersafe, Test Test Test. Link for hanna tester below. They are very affordable at $50 IMO

https://hannainst.com/hi702-copper-hr.html