Prophylactic dip for newly shipped fish?

[Elgringodiablo]

After losing my Bandit Angel 3 weeks into quarantine to a gram negative bacterial infection, which I recognized way too late to treat appropriately, I plan to order another from a supplier in Hawaii. Probably a scenario of more money than brains, but I want to make sure I am successful this time around.

In hopes to avoid bacterial infections next time around I am going to make extra sure my QT is cycled, keep the feeding to a minimum and big frequent water changes.

I am considering doing a methylene blue or methylene blue + fresh water dip, before transferring to the QT. Or I may just do a acriflavine bath prior to adding? I'm not a huge fan of freshwater dips, as I am used to the fish freaking out, maybe I am not good at matching the PH?

I will be treating prophylactic with Prazipro followed by Chloroquine Phosphate, both of which I am pretty comfortable with. I realize prophylactic antibiotics probably aren't a great idea if there is no obvious need for them.

Any thoughts or advice? I really want to make sure I don't lose another pricey fish like this to a bacterial infection.

 

[HotRocks]

After losing my Bandit Angel 3 weeks into quarantine to a gram negative bacterial infection, which I recognized way too late to treat appropriately, I plan to order another from a supplier in Hawaii. Probably a scenario of more money than brains, but I want to make sure I am successful this time around.

In hopes to avoid bacterial infections next time around I am going to make extra sure my QT is cycled, keep the feeding to a minimum and big frequent water changes.

I am considering doing a methylene blue or methylene blue + fresh water dip, before transferring to the QT. Or I may just do a acriflavine bath prior to adding? I'm not a huge fan of freshwater dips, as I am used to the fish freaking out, maybe I am not good at matching the PH?

I will be treating prophylactic with Prazipro followed by Chloroquine Phosphate, both of which I am pretty comfortable with. I realize prophylactic antibiotics probably aren't a great idea if there is no obvious need for them.

Any thoughts or advice? I really want to make sure I don't lose another pricey fish like this to a bacterial infection.

I would highly recommend sterilizing your QT very well before adding another fish if gram negative bacteria is present.

For obvious reasons antibiotics are not a good choice for prophylactic treatment due to resistance, possible unnecessary exposure ect. I can relate to your thinking. As I have lost fish in both my current and previous batch of QT to gram negative bacteria.

Angels commonly come down with infections in therapuetic copper. One thing that may help is having a second sterile tank to transfer fish to after 14 days at the therapeutic level to reduce exposure time to copper or CP.

Watch closely and then have antibiotics ready. Highly recommend having NFG on hand if you don't already. It has saved my rear more than once. Another great @Humblefish find!

 

[GoldeneyeRet]

I would start CP treatment as soon as you can after arrival. Velvet kills quickly.

While in CP, watch very closely for any signs of infection. If you see anything, get the fish into NFG immediately.

After CP you can deal with flukes, worms etc.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

I would highly recommend sterilizing your QT very well before adding another fish if gram negative bacteria is present.

For obvious reasons antibiotics are not a good choice for prophylactic treatment due to resistance, possible unnecessary exposure ect. I can relate to your thinking. As I have lost fish in both my current and previous batch of QT to gram negative bacteria.

Angels commonly come down with infections in therapuetic copper. One thing that may help is having a second sterile tank to transfer fish to after 14 days at the therapeutic level to reduce exposure time to copper or CP.

Watch closely and then have antibiotics ready. Highly recommend having NFG on hand if you don't already. It has saved my rear more than once. Another great @Humblefish find!

Yeah, I will have to dig up that link. I don't recall nitrofuracin green being readily available, but @Humblefish did recommend it when we realized my last bandit was sick (couldn't have gotten it fast enough unfortunately).

So you think 14 days in CP then transfer to a new QT and observe might be safer? Any merit to the methylene blue or acriflavine dips beforehand or only if the fish has symptoms? I feel like both of those are super safe and easy as a dip/bath.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

I would start CP treatment as soon as you can after arrival. Velvet kills quickly.

While in CP, watch very closely for any signs of infection. If you see anything, get the fish into NFG immediately.

After CP you can deal with flukes, worms etc.

All the fish I have gotten from this guy have been parasite free, but after getting velvet in my display a couple different times in the past few years from various sources, all my new acquisitions are treated with either CP or CopperSafe (wrasses and anthias).

 

[GoldeneyeRet]

I feel mb and acriflavine baths are valuable before the CP, especially if the fish shows any signs of parasites, injuries , ammonia burn etc

 

[HotRocks]

Yeah, I will have to dig up that link. I don't recall nitrofurazone green being readily available, but @Humblefish did recommend it when we realized my last bandit was sick (couldn't have gotten it fast enough unfortunately).

So you think 14 days in CP then transfer to a new QT and observe might be safer? Any merit to the methylene blue or acriflavine dips beforehand or only if the fish has symptoms? I feel like both of those are super safe and easy as a dip/bath.

I am not sure about MB or acriflavine baths being helpful if there isn't an injury or something you are trying to prevent becoming infected. They are typically very easy on the fish, so it may be beneficial, let's see what others say on that.

Here is NFG link
http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html

While Copper/CP are very necessary, reducing the exposure time for these more bacterial prone fish is very helpful. Copper/CP supress the immune system so lessening the length of time for exposure definitely will significantly reduce your chances for an infection.

I'm assuming you already feed vitamins like selcon or vitachem while fish are in CP, it's also important due to the immune system supression during exposure to these meds.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

I am not sure about MB or acriflavine baths being helpful if there isn't an injury or something you are trying to prevent becoming infected. They are typically very easy on the fish, so it may be beneficial, let's see what others say on that.

Here is NFG link
http://store.nationalfishpharm.com/NFP-products-Nitrofuracin-Green-59584.Item.html

While Copper/CP are very necessary, reducing the exposure time for these more bacterial prone fish is very helpful. Copper/CP supress the immune system so lessening the length of time for exposure definitely will significantly reduce your chances for an infection.

I'm assuming you already feed vitamins like selcon or vitachem while fish are in CP, it's also important due to the immune system supression during exposure to these meds.

Wish they sold smaller quantities, $118 is a chunk of change, even for a dude buying a second bandit angel. I suppose if it has reasonable shelf life, I can make that last me 3-4 years.

Yeah, I use selcon and garlic on new fish in QT. Usually feed mysis, but will probably feed a bandit the hikari frozen angel food.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

Anyone have experience with CP from National Fish Pharm? I've been using the New Life Spectrum stuff, which has worked fine for me, but has pretty questionable purity (sourced from China).

 

[GoldeneyeRet]

CP requires a prescription from a veterinarian and to be sourced from a pharmacy.

Using CP from any other source may be ineffective and illegal. If you can get a script from a vet use cp, if not use copper.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

CP requires a prescription from a veterinarian and to be sourced from a pharmacy.

Using CP from any other source may be ineffective and illegal. If you can get a script from a vet use cp, if not use copper.

Yeah, for some reason most vets aren't too enthusiastic about writing prescriptions for animals they haven't seen and I am yet to find one that deals with tropical fish. Guess I will keep rolling the dice with the chinese stuff. Hope the DEA doesn't come a callin'.

 

[GoldeneyeRet]

To me, it seems unwise to go through a thorough qt process only to gamble on a possibly ineffective product.

I use cp on all fish that can tolerate it, but if I couldn't get it from a trusted source I would use Copper. Especially true with a fish as exquisite and expensive as a bandit!

Good luck, whatever route you choose!

 

[Elgringodiablo]

To me, it seems unwise to go through a thorough qt process only to gamble on a possibly ineffective product.

I use cp on all fish that can tolerate it, but if I couldn't get it from a trusted source I would use Copper. Especially true with a fish as exquisite and expensive as a bandit!

Good luck, whatever route you choose!

I really prefer to only use copper on fish I know to be CP intolerant (wrasses, anthias, hippo tang). I've never had ich or velvet from a fish that I treated with the NLS stuff, as dubious as the quality likely is. Only times I ever had issues were before I quarantined, and when I stopped prophylactically treating after some compatibility/sensitivity issues (CP on hippo tangs and flasher wrasses and Ionic Copper with old school testing tools).

Realistically the Chinese CP is probably 80-90% pure. At a therapeutic range of 40-60mg per gallon, it would have to be under 66% pure to be ineffective at 60mg right? Guess we won't know unless we can convince NLS to put out a data sheet on their product.

Obviously, if it was available to me, I would prefer 99% pure. If someone knows a vet in the Los Angeles area who is down to write me a prescription, I am all ears. Closest one I've found that deals with fish is San Bernardino (1.5 hour drive). So far the ones I've asked think I am a doomsday prepper...

 

[HotRocks]

I really prefer to only use copper on fish I know to be CP intolerant (wrasses, anthias, hippo tang). I've never had ich or velvet from a fish that I treated with the NLS stuff, as dubious as the quality likely is. Only times I ever had issues were before I quarantined, and when I stopped prophylactically treating after some compatibility/sensitivity issues (CP on hippo tangs and flasher wrasses and Ionic Copper with old school testing tools).

Realistically the Chinese CP is probably 80-90% pure. At a therapeutic range of 40-60mg per gallon, it would have to be under 66% pure to be ineffective at 60mg right? Guess we won't know unless we can convince NLS to put out a data sheet on their product.

Obviously, if it was available to me, I would prefer 99% pure. If someone knows a vet in the Los Angeles area who is down to write me a prescription, I am all ears. Closest one I've found that deals with fish is San Bernardino (1.5 hour drive). So far the ones I've asked think I am a doomsday prepper...

Just curious. Have you ever tried chelated copper? I have 2 Lineatus supermale and several other wrasses in therapuetic copper power with no issues.

Bacteria is a different story. I also have them in Furan-2/Kanaplex.

 

[GoldeneyeRet]

Purity is only one issue. Shelf life and uv exposure are some others.

It's your fish, and if you are comfortable with those risks that's fine. I wish you the best, post pics of that bandit when you get it soI can drool!

 

[Elgringodiablo]

Just curious. Have you ever tried chelated copper? I have 2 Lineatus supermale and several other wrasses in therapuetic copper power with no issues.

Bacteria is a different story. I also have them in Furan-2/Kanaplex.

Yup, that's what I use on all of my non-CP compatible fish. Ideally ramping it over 4-5 days and keeping it around 1.75 on the Hanna checker, to give me a little room for evaporation. Ironically, the only fish I've had that wouldn't tolerate it was my Lineatus supermale. He stopped eating on CopperSafe and wouldn't eat with CP (there is anecdotal evidence that fairy wrasses will do okay in CP). Had to pull all the meds and just observe him for a couple months. Seems to have made it through and is in an acclimation cube in my display.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

Purity is only one issue. Shelf life and uv exposure are some others.

It's your fish, and if you are comfortable with those risks that's fine. I wish you the best, post pics of that bandit when you get it soI can drool!

Honestly, after killing a few fish in QT due to mistakes with Cupramine (which I won't touch anymore) or fish that were CP incompatible, I stopped everything except Prazi for about a year, just treated for flukes and observed for everything else. If something popped up in quarantine I would then treat. That worked out fine for me for about 20-30 fish across 4 systems over about a year, then I ended up getting velvet in one of my displays for the first time in about 3 years. After dealing with that and managing to take no losses, I'm back to prophylactic treatment of everything.

I've probably suffered as more losses in QT than I have in my displays, but nothing sucks worse than having to catch all your fish and go fallow on a really stocked system.

 

[HotRocks]

That's interesting. Some individual fish just seem to have copper senstivity. The two I have are the best eaters in the tank. Btw One is for a friend they won't be permanently housed together.

@4FordFamily

Also have a supermale labouti and pintail as well doing great.

Just started copper yesterday on a QT with leopards (M/F choats and meleagris).

I know some people who have had success with fairy's and halichores in CP as well.

 

[Elgringodiablo]

That's interesting. Some individual fish just seem to have copper senstivity. The two I have are the best eaters in the tank. Btw One is for a friend they won't be permanently housed together.

@4FordFamily

Also have a supermale labouti and pintail as well doing great.

Just started copper yesterday on a QT with leopards (M/F choats and meleagris).

I know some people who have had success with fairy's and halichores in CP as well.

Honestly, that Lineatus is the only one I've had issues with in CopperSafe. Just ran a Flame, Velvet Multicolor, Pearlyscale, Labout's, Pintail Isosceles and Golden Rhomboid through Cu without a care in the world. I'm just a little gun shy after bad experience with ionic copper and they whole 'technically poisonous' aspects of copper.