Pros vs Cons: Deep Sand Bed vs Shallow Sand Bed

[Eienna]

Okay. "Book of Coral Propagation" by Anthony Calfo, page 65, "Sand between 1/2 inch and three inches is usually not deep enough to reduce nitrate and yet too deep to be fully aerobic."

I see.
Perhaps I shall get myself a copy

 

[Mauger's Reef]

Thats a great book.

 

[Whys Alives]

IMO, CaribSea Ocean Direct is vastly superior to their arag-alive. Tho it doesn't contain any macro organisms, it does contain micro organisms in addition to the bacteria. I've confirmed this by placing direct samples from a fresh bag under a microscope.

IME, the best thing for a healthy DSB is a healthy benthic population, and of these, I have found spionid worms to be of the greatest value. Spionid worms are often found on quality liverock and will easily populate a sandbed that has decent water flow over its surface. The higher the flow the better.

Burrowing amphipods typically do well, creating small lateral tunnels against the tank glass. Combined with cerith and perhaps nassarius snails, the sandbed can stay remarkably clean without ever cleaning it. I left mine completely untouched for over 5 years.

People typically advise against hermits, but after watching my red scarlet, yellow tip, blue leg, and even zebra herms, I'm doubtful they eat too many of the benthics. But in large enough numbers, I suspect they can eat too much of the available food, basically out competing the benthics. Just a guess tho.

 

[Eienna]

IMO, CaribSea Ocean Direct is vastly superior to their arag-alive. Tho it doesn't contain any macro organisms, it does contain micro organisms in addition to the bacteria. I've confirmed this by placing direct samples from a fresh bag under a microscope.

IME, the best thing for a healthy DSB is a healthy benthic population, and of these, I have found spionid worms to be of the greatest value. Spionid worms are often found on quality liverock and will easily populate a sandbed that has decent water flow over its surface. The higher the flow the better.

Burrowing amphipods typically do well, creating small lateral tunnels against the tank glass. Combined with cerith and perhaps nassarius snails, the sandbed can stay remarkably clean without ever cleaning it. I left mine completely untouched for over 5 years.

People typically advise against hermits, but after watching my red scarlet, yellow tip, blue leg, and even zebra herms, I'm doubtful they eat too many of the benthics. But in large enough numbers, I suspect they can eat too much of the available food, basically out competing the benthics. Just a guess tho.

Is the Ocean's Direct more expensive or the same price? I might try a bag or two in my upgrade.

 

[ManOfSalt]

So I just had two guys from the LFS tell me a DSB was a bad idea. One came out of left field with "everything comes from the live rock and the sand is just sand". I've read enough to know how ridiculous that statement was. The other one told me that it would cause major algae problems because my tank is facing my courtyard and the light will affect the algae growth. How would a DSB affect that?? Wouldn't algae thrive on even a BB if there was a lot of light? I just can't see that being a problem because it's no where near direct sunlight. It's not the darkest spot in the room but surely not light enough to cause any serious problems. I read about algae that grows as a result of hydrogen pockets in deep sand but I also read it's quite easy to avoid those.

It's bizarre! Out of all the great things I read about DSBs, those guys (though their arguments were meagre at best in my opinion) and the majority of voters on this thread prefer a SSB! Am I missing something?!?! A sand bed that keeps you from having to do water changes (given you don't over feed and over stock right?) and substrate maintenance just seems like a no brainer to me. Do people just prefer to do it as maintenance is a big part of the hobby?

 

[CastAway]

Tagging along. I'm planning an undisturbed DSB (5") in my refugium and a regularly stirred & vacuumed SSB (1/2"-1") in the DT. This information has helped to solidify my plans. Quite a wealth of experience and opinion reflected here.

 

[Kworker]

So I just had two guys from the LFS tell me a DSB was a bad idea. One came out of left field with "everything comes from the live rock and the sand is just sand". I've read enough to know how ridiculous that statement was. The other one told me that it would cause major algae problems because my tank is facing my courtyard and the light will affect the algae growth. How would a DSB affect that?? Wouldn't algae thrive on even a BB if there was a lot of light? I just can't see that being a problem because it's no where near direct sunlight. It's not the darkest spot in the room but surely not light enough to cause any serious problems. I read about algae that grows as a result of hydrogen pockets in deep sand but I also read it's quite easy to avoid those.

It's bizarre! Out of all the great things I read about DSBs, those guys (though their arguments were meagre at best in my opinion) and the majority of voters on this thread prefer a SSB! Am I missing something?!?! A sand bed that keeps you from having to do water changes (given you don't over feed and over stock right?) and substrate maintenance just seems like a no brainer to me. Do people just prefer to do it as maintenance is a big part of the hobby?

First, it sounds like you don't like to listen to others. I feel the guy that mentioned sand may have meant that you gain all beneficial bacteria you need from the rock. The guy mentioning the light would have a valid point if indeed direct light made its way in.

Also, you should read a bit more about proper husbandry of this hobby. If you are looking for a way to not do easy regular maintenance such as water changes.. I'm sorry to break it to you but you have the wrong hobby than and I would feel bad for any livestock you take care of if that is the approach taken.

 

[Eienna]

So I just had two guys from the LFS tell me a DSB was a bad idea. One came out of left field with "everything comes from the live rock and the sand is just sand". I've read enough to know how ridiculous that statement was. The other one told me that it would cause major algae problems because my tank is facing my courtyard and the light will affect the algae growth. How would a DSB affect that?? Wouldn't algae thrive on even a BB if there was a lot of light? I just can't see that being a problem because it's no where near direct sunlight. It's not the darkest spot in the room but surely not light enough to cause any serious problems. I read about algae that grows as a result of hydrogen pockets in deep sand but I also read it's quite easy to avoid those.

It's bizarre! Out of all the great things I read about DSBs, those guys (though their arguments were meagre at best in my opinion) and the majority of voters on this thread prefer a SSB! Am I missing something?!?! A sand bed that keeps you from having to do water changes (given you don't over feed and over stock right?) and substrate maintenance just seems like a no brainer to me. Do people just prefer to do it as maintenance is a big part of the hobby?

Having a DSB does help the water quality in terms of nitrates, but water changes are still needed. It is true that the critters basically take care of bed maintenance for you, assuming you keep the number and diversity of these creatures high.

The guys you were talking to just don't understand the concept and execution of a DSB. Indeed, many don't. The idea is not new but it was incorrectly done by so many people that most people now think it doesn't work (for whatever odd reasons.)

And yes - light causes algae growth. That's a given whether you're talking about artificial or real sunlight. Algae also requires nutrients, however. If it doesn't have enough phosphate, etc and there are plenty of grazers to keep it in check, algae problems will be nearly nonexistent. It has nothing to do with whether it's a DSB or not UNLESS you don't have sufficient infauna; if you don't have the tiny creatures in high numbers and diversity, the DSB will simply trap decaying matter and feed algae.

And...the sand that comes into these places IS "just sand." You have to add the infauna yourself.

 

[Whys Alives]

DSBs were really popular about a decade ago, but a lot of people didn't like the look of it in their display tanks. So people started putting it in their refugiums and that's where it all went wrong, IMO. It's not that it can't work in a fuge, but most fuges are in the sump because it just so much more convenient that way. As a result, the average DSB footprint shrank because a fuge in the sump is always smaller than the display tank. At the same time, this opened up more space in the display tank for a larger bioload. If that weren't enough, the vast majority of refugiums are intentionally low-flow environments. My experience has taught me that a high flow over the sandbed's surface is fairly key to a healthy DSB. So a smaller DSB with a lower flow combined with a larger bioload greatly increased the rates of failure. As the DSB began to fall out of favor, hobbyists began discussing how helpful it was to keep a DSB in the fuge because it was easier to remove it when it failed. That was very wrong headed logic that help usher the DSB out. Those concerned about nitrate reduction were then sold on the wonders of Cheato macro-algae. Chaeto will absorb nitrate that can then be removed via pruning of the Chaeto. But even a big healthy ball of Chaeto set to tumble in the fuge doesn't come close to the nitrate reduction power of a functional DSB in the display tank. Chaeto is however, much easier to accomodate. Thus the DSB has been nearly forgotten.

It's worth pointing out that it is a lot of sand. And if you think you'll be moving in a couple or years, it's probably not worth the trouble. By its very nature, a DSB can not be moved. Trying to either renders the DSB non-functional and a nitrate factory, or otherwise destroys the glass aquarium because you can't move an aquarium with 5 inches of sand in it.

 

[Mike J.]

Quotes from above, "It has nothing to do with whether it's a DSB or not UNLESS you don't have sufficient infauna; if you don't have the tiny creatures in high numbers and diversity, the DSB will simply trap decaying matter and feed algae."

"The guys you were talking to just don't understand the concept and execution of a DSB. Indeed, many don't."

Quote from "Book of Coral Propagation", "A benefit of deep sand beds is the competition of the living substrate with nuisance algae for nutrients. Nitrifying bacteria in the oxygenated upper region of the substrate will compete with pest organisms for ammonia and other nutritive compounds in the water. There are limitations to the process, of course, and aquarists who have suffered significant blooms of algae that they wanted to blame on the sand bed should consider their overall system husbandry."

It's not the critters in the sand bed that keep the sand clean it is the nitrifying bacteria that it hosts.

If you read about the benefits of remote deep sand beds, they are kept in the dark with no critters. If you read the article by Dr. Shimek, that I linked in this thread, he discourages the use of any sand stirrers.

"Indeed, many don't."

 

[Whys Alives]

Mike J., the issue with not having any benthics or CUC to stir the sand is mostly one of compaction and hard-panning. If the sand compacts and/or hard-pans, the whole system of nutrient exchange starts to break down and truly anoxic conditions can form. In the case of aragonite/bicarbonate substrates, compaction and hard panning are a forgone eventuality without stirring because of it's natural buffering capacity.

I would be very apprehensive about having a DSB without benthics.

 

[Eienna]

Quotes from above, "It has nothing to do with whether it's a DSB or not UNLESS you don't have sufficient infauna; if you don't have the tiny creatures in high numbers and diversity, the DSB will simply trap decaying matter and feed algae."

"The guys you were talking to just don't understand the concept and execution of a DSB. Indeed, many don't."

Quote from "Book of Coral Propagation", "A benefit of deep sand beds is the competition of the living substrate with nuisance algae for nutrients. Nitrifying bacteria in the oxygenated upper region of the substrate will compete with pest organisms for ammonia and other nutritive compounds in the water. There are limitations to the process, of course, and aquarists who have suffered significant blooms of algae that they wanted to blame on the sand bed should consider their overall system husbandry."

It's not the critters in the sand bed that keep the sand clean it is the nitrifying bacteria that it hosts.

If you read about the benefits of remote deep sand beds, they are kept in the dark with no critters. If you read the article by Dr. Shimek, that I linked in this thread, he discourages the use of any sand stirrers.

"Indeed, many don't."

Shimek DOES NOT discourage the use of infauna, just the sifters that strip the bed of them.

For some reason I can't get my copy function to stick to the more pertinent parts, but I suggest you read this other article (by Shimek) anyway.
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-06/rs/feature/index.php

 

[Mike J.]

My deep sand bed actually moves when the lights go out. I even have a nine year old Olive in there. My 9 year old clown also keeps it dug down to the glass. I'm not going to get rid of them if I don't have a problem.

It was another thread (whoops) about sand sifters in deep sand beds where I posted Dr. Shimek's article. Ron Shimek's Website...Deep Sand Beds He has the statement in bold print.

 

[Eienna]

My deep sand bed actually moves when the lights go out. I even have a nine year old Olive in there. My 9 year old clown also keeps it dug down to the glass. I'm not going to get rid of them if I don't have a problem.

It was another thread (whoops) about sand sifters in deep sand beds where I posted Dr. Shimek's article. Ron Shimek's Website...Deep Sand Beds He has the statement in bold print.

......isn't that what I just said? That creatures living in the bed eating detritus are good but those that sift the sand, eating those creatures, are not?

As far as your diggers go, I'd need to know more about olive snails, but I don't think one fish shoving some sand around would cause much of a problem in a good-sized tank.

 

[ManOfSalt]

First, it sounds like you don't like to listen to others. I feel the guy that mentioned sand may have meant that you gain all beneficial bacteria you need from the rock. The guy mentioning the light would have a valid point if indeed direct light made its way in.

Also, you should read a bit more about proper husbandry of this hobby. If you are looking for a way to not do easy regular maintenance such as water changes.. I'm sorry to break it to you but you have the wrong hobby than and I would feel bad for any livestock you take care of if that is the approach taken.

I listen to others just fine and I don't appreciate the judgemental comment. Instead of you "feeling" what the guy meant how about asking me if you aren't sure? What he said was in response to me asking him his thoughts on a DSB which then he replied "A DSB is a bad idea. Everything comes from the live rock and the sand is just sand". I get the sand IS just sand and I get that when you do use live rock and dry sand that obviously everything comes from the rock. But that fact sand is just sand doesn't support his statement of a DSB being a bad idea. Hence why I said that is a ridiculous comment. Are we a bit more clear on that now?

And also, I AM looking for a way to do easy regular maintenance which is why a DSB appeals to me. I'm reading alot about people who have DSBs who hardly ever have to do water changes and I like that idea due to my housing situation making that a bit complicated. Oh look there goes me listening to people. If you need more examples of that, perhaps you should read my earlier posts in this thread. And thanks for your concern of my future livestock but no thanks.

 

[ManOfSalt]

It's worth pointing out that it is a lot of sand. And if you think you'll be moving in a couple or years, it's probably not worth the trouble. By its very nature, a DSB can not be moved. Trying to either renders the DSB non-functional and a nitrate factory, or otherwise destroys the glass aquarium because you can't move an aquarium with 5 inches of sand in it.

now THAT I didn't think of.... uuuuugh that complicates things D: I may just have to go with a SSB after all. At least until my house is ready in a few years.

 

[vlangel]

Hi all. I've been following this thread because In the late 1990's I worked at a LFS and my boss was a fan of DSB. I learned of the function of one as a nitrate reducer without really understanding the science. I only knew the importance of not disturbing the anaerobic bacteria at the bottom and keeping a healthy colony of creatures at the surface. My question now is: where do the anaerobic bacteria come from when a DSB is put in? I assuming the creatures on the surface come from seeding a tank with LR but I am at a loss to imagine where the anaerobic colony comes from?

 

[Kworker]

I listen to others just fine and I don't appreciate the judgemental comment. Instead of you "feeling" what the guy meant how about asking me if you aren't sure? What he said was in response to me asking him his thoughts on a DSB which then he replied "A DSB is a bad idea. Everything comes from the live rock and the sand is just sand". I get the sand IS just sand and I get that when you do use live rock and dry sand that obviously everything comes from the rock. But that fact sand is just sand doesn't support his statement of a DSB being a bad idea. Hence why I said that is a ridiculous comment. Are we a bit more clear on that now?

And also, I AM looking for a way to do easy regular maintenance which is why a DSB appeals to me. I'm reading alot about people who have DSBs who hardly ever have to do water changes and I like that idea due to my housing situation making that a bit complicated. Oh look there goes me listening to people. If you need more examples of that, perhaps you should read my earlier posts in this thread. And thanks for your concern of my future livestock but no thanks.

I will let time work it out for you.

 

[CastAway]

I still love this thread.... :smile:

 

[jgraz]

I have learned tones from this thread. I just put a DSB in a 65gal tank that will serve as a refugium also. This is of course going to te attached to a 200+gal system as it comes along. I kept it seperate so that I could avoid messing around. I did however start with dry sand. I will seed this with some of the sand from my 90 when I break it down. That tank has about a 2.5" bed, so is it still worth seeding from it. I put out a call to local reefers but all seem reluctant to give me a bit of sand. I really want this DSB to be everything it possible can. So I ask you all what are the best creatures I can add? When should I add them, Ive heard that I sould wait awhile for the worm pack from indo pacific. And beside IPSF.com where can i find the stuff I need.

Thank you all, and please keep up this discussion.
John