Pulled A Stupid

[DerekFF]

Mike j pretty much explained it pretty well. You need the anaerobic denitrification to actually remove nitrates. Which is where lots of live rock or deep sand beds come into play. Bio balls are still not a nitrate trap if maintained properly as I explained earlier, but just aren't enough to do it all. So you're stuck with a few options.
1. Religious water changes
2. Commercial de-nitrification products like purigen and carbon and the such.
3. DSB or sufficient live rock

These are the most common ways of removing nitrates from the aquarium. But again, bio balls are just a part of the filtration system and are great if maintained properly. This is an example of how best to use bio balls so that they don't need to be cleaned often. (I know they aren't bio balls but its the fluidized idea or just a turbulent flow area for the balls to tumble so that it prevents detritus buildup)
http://youtu.be/8WDjHZF6ADA


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[Liquid360]

lol I say "so it's a matter of flow/number if balls" then it gets refuted then supported... Lol. This occurs quite frequently.
Question: "How often should you feed your anemone?"
Answer: "daily. Twice a week. Twice a month. AND not at all."

Lol. This occurs quite a lot. Like I always say, this is a hobby with a million paths to the same destination... as much art as science. Too many factors for any two tanks, even two tanks on the same closed loop, to be the same. What works brilliantly for one tank could fail on an identical tank. There are no rules here, only suggestions.

 

[mcarroll]

lol I say "so it's a matter of flow/number if balls" then it gets refuted then supported... Lol. This occurs quite frequently.
Question: "How often should you feed your anemone?"
Answer: "daily. Twice a week. Twice a month. AND not at all."

Lol. This occurs quite a lot. Like I always say, this is a hobby with a million paths to the same destination... as much art as science. Too many factors for any two tanks, even two tanks on the same closed loop, to be the same. What works brilliantly for one tank could fail on an identical tank. There are no rules here, only suggestions.

Excellent point! No question that it can be confusing weeding through what appears to be conflicting advice, but there are some rules and guidelines.

For one, there are no identical tanks. Two, 100% of us do not know all the rules, or even follow the ones we know 100% of the time.
Three, a lot of what people learn from the Internet is stale knowledge still being repeated: closed loops, bio balls, giant return pumps, the concept of "starter fish", etc, etc. All outmoded but you still see new deployments of these things all the time.
Four, everything comes from more or less the same ocean. If you pick a specific environment to emulate, this will give a nice framework of rules.

All this explains most of the apparent "noise" in trying to figure this hobby out by reading on the Internet.

This is also why I recommend that everyone have a good book such as Conscientious Marine Aquarist, or similar. (Some people will even hire someone to start their tank and teach them.)

Having a single, consistent viewpoint to learn from can be very beneficial. Many are too cheap to pony up for a book "cuz the Internet is free". Penny wise, pound foolish.

And just a few footnotes to all the good answers the OP already got:
Nitrates come from the food you put in the tank, and nowhere else. Lower the food inputs, you lower the nitrates going into the system.
Removing the balls is a good idea, but remember the fact your Nitrates are building up (vs gassing off in your sand bed or live rock) is because the balls are working so well. They are supremely good at what they do and work faster than the rock or sand due to all the O2 available in the "wet/dry" deployment. Bioballs are not a gimmick, they just do not provide the experience we want in a reef. Remove them slowly over a week or two and the bacteria colonies in your rock and sand will increase to make up the difference.

-Matt

 

[Liquid360]

I HATE bringing it up... but I think it's valid for this chat. I've been reefin' for over 30yrs. I stand by my statement that its as much art as science even though that can sound counterintuitive considering we're dealing with biology. The only guidelines/rules I follow having tried EVERYTHING and pre-Internet...
1) clean water
2) good salt
3) water changes 20%/month done weekly

That's it. Everything else, without exception, is a choice... and even #3 isn't a rule. If bio balls didn't work in a reef nobody would use them. Truth is that I've seen MANY beautiful reefs using them quite successfully. Use them or not. It sounds like you've made the choice already. Is it the right choice? Absolutely! Absolutely not!

 

[DerekFF]

Well all these opinions people give about bio balls is because there's a right way.....and a wrong way to use them. If you use them the right way, they're a GREAT piece of your filtration system. If you use them the wrong way, you either fall into the "uh it traps nitrates" group of people, or have to compensate by using lots of commercial products.


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[DerekFF]

Also liquid360 those are the same rules I use and they can't steer anyone wrong.
Observing your tank will always trump any test kit you own in telling you something is wrong with your tank is another rule I like to use. And the KISS method. (Keep it simple stupid) which pretty much sums up the simple rules you stated.


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[Liquid360]

Agreed!! I like that! KISS... I'll use that. Also I believe in a bioball setup the previous chamber should be setup to remove all particulates so there shouldn't be any "bits" at all making it to the bioball chamber, correct?

 

[DerekFF]

Agreed!! I like that! KISS... I'll use that. Also I believe in a bioball setup the previous chamber should be setup to remove all particulates so there shouldn't be any "bits" at all making it to the bioball chamber, correct?

Typically. Some people put them in the first chamber because that's where the most turbulent flow is, so like live rock in the tank they get kept pretty clean from just the overflow water tumble. But yeah best bet if its not high flow chamber is to put them after a filter sock/pads to help prevent any detritus build up


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[MadBrad527]

I appreciate all the responses. I understand how it all works now, and I also understand that the bioballs can work if used correctly. Personally I think I'm going to get rid of them anyways. I'll most likely end up putting live rock in the chamber, as Mike J explained above (thanks Mike). If I don't go the rock path, I'll get some sort of media running in there.

Thanks again everyone,
Brad

 

[mcarroll]

I appreciate all the responses. I understand how it all works now, and I also understand that the bioballs can work if used correctly. Personally I think I'm going to get rid of them anyways. I'll most likely end up putting live rock in the chamber, as Mike J explained above (thanks Mike). If I don't go the rock path, I'll get some sort of media running in there.

I would feel no pressure to add rock or anything else to that chamber once the bioballs are gone unless you really feel there is a need. (I don't see a need based on this thread...you may have other factors to consider though.)

Consider that the chamber will not really be empty - it will be holding an increased volume of water, and that water will flow without as much turbulence so less waste will collect there. And who knows, you may think of a better use for that chamber than "even more rock" down the road.

-Matt

 

[DerekFF]

I also wouldn't put rock in a linear chamber like that. It will largely obstruct flow and collect detritus. I agree with leaving it empty or doing something else with it.


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[Liquid360]

Come on now derick, rocks are totally different from bioballs!

 

[DerekFF]

Haha. Yeah just not in linear setups like that.


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[xbobx07]

I am new to the hobby and just wanted to pipe in on this. At first before I set up my tank I talked to the guy at my LFS. The tank set up I purchased of CL came with a wet dry sump that had a carbon bag and BIO-Balls in it. the guy said take the bio balls and carbon bag out of the sump and just use the sump as a way to move water for the first couple months while my bacteria and bio-cyle is starting. basically the cascading water is just be oxygenated. He said later I would add a protien skimmer and thats all th filtration I really need. I have a screen in the wetdry pump just to catch the big stuff but thats all I have atm. I was reading this thread and you guys seem to have so more complicated filters set up. Is there something the guy at my LFS isnt telling me to do that I should do? also whats is it that makes the refugium the refugium over a normal sump?

 

[Liquid360]

A sump with appropriate measures to block particulates and a good protein skimmer is all you need... to borrow from another KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid). I like that and it's a VERY good way to approach reef keeping. It's easy to get sucked into more complicated routines/methods because we all want to do what's best for our reef. I've been doing this a very long time and tried every new method as they came around.
1) use good clean RO water
2) use good salt
3) do 5% water changes weekly

The end.

 

[DerekFF]

It's true that the sump doesn't really need to function as a mega filter like on fresh water. A particulate filter like a filter sock, a skimmer, and maybe a ball of chaeto to suck up extra nutrients is all you need in a sump. The live rock/sand bed in the tank should do the bio filtration. And everything else should be KISS. Clean water changes on a regular basis and look (not glance.....i mean really look) at your tank often. So yeah the LFS guy is pretty accurate.


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