Pump and plumbing master level 60? Look here…

[Impetus]

I want redundancy but that means…

2 return pumps
2 pumps for closed loop
2 pumps for protein skimmer

Is it possible to cut it down to two pumps and control how much power goes to the different systems?

 

[blaxsun]

No, no and no. Get a good DC return pump like a Sicce SDC and a reliable skimmer with a DC pump as well. Add a pair of low-wattage wavemakers and tie them into a battery backup.

That's everything you need to keep your tank alive for 24 hours+ in case the power fails.

 

[Impetus]

No no no. You design your aquarium. I design mine. I have been down the road you suggest and I think your approach is wrong when you look at TCO, design and ease. And please respect that this threat is not about your design ideas.

Anyone with a black belt in architectural sump design?

 

[BeanAnimal]

I don't understand your question. You list 6 pumps and want redundancy but want to cut it down to 2 pumps. Two totally contradictory design paradigms.

 

[BeanAnimal]

So let's start over.
What size tank?
What size sump?
What type of bio-load and what type of coral?
What type of skimmer?

 

[blaxsun]

No no no. You design your aquarium. I design mine. I have been down the road you suggest and I think your approach is wrong when you look at TCO, design and ease. And please respect that this threat is not about your design ideas.

Anyone with a black belt in architectural sump design?

Haha, design away!

 

[Impetus]

I don't understand your question. You list 6 pumps and want redundancy but want to cut it down to 2 pumps. Two totally contradictory design paradigms.

2 pumps is redundancy. 6 is overkill.

 

[BeanAnimal]

2 pumps is redundancy. 6 is overkill.

Not without context it isn't.

Are you here to argue or get design advice?

 

[Impetus]

So let's start over.
What size tank?
What size sump?
What type of bio-load and what type of coral?
What type of skimmer?

180x90x70 cm display tank.

The room next door is 200x320 cm. The display tank is going to be build into the wall between those two rooms.

I still didnt settle on the size of the sump but its going to include:

Fleece filter
Saltwater mixing tank
Skimmer
Refugium
Calcium reactor
Closed loop

Maybe RO. Denmark doesnt use any chemicals in the water. Only natural filtration. The water is a bit hard but thats it.

The pumps are my main headache. Especially the 2 return pumps and the 2 pumps for the closed loop.

I would rather have 2 big pumps that can distribute lets say 90% power to the closed loop and 10% for the return.

 

[ADAM]

It’s possible with the use of a manifold and gate/needle valves to adjust each feed line.

 

[Impetus]

It’s possible with the use of a manifold and gate/needle valves to adjust each feed line.

Would it work or should I forget about it and just buy 4 pumps?

 

[BeanAnimal]

180x90x70 cm display tank.

The room next door is 200x320 cm. The display tank is going to be build into the wall between those two rooms.

I still didnt settle on the size of the sump but its going to include:

Fleece filter
Saltwater mixing tank
Skimmer
Refugium
Calcium reactor
Closed loop

Maybe RO. Denmark doesnt use any chemicals in the water. Only natural filtration. The water is a bit hard but thats it.

The pumps are my main headache. Especially the 2 return pumps and the 2 pumps for the closed loop.

I would rather have 2 big pumps that can distribute lets say 90% power to the closed loop and 10% for the return.

OK - so 300 Gallons

Return pumps:
You have a lot going on in that sump (skimmer, reactor, fleece). So you will need decent flow. A single pump on the larger side is certainly an option. However, I would (without question) use two return pumps, both for redundancy and to also reduce their overall wear and tear. A larger DC pump run at a lower setting will last longer than the same pump driven at 100% capacity. This also allows makes for easier plumbing and flow balance. You don't need to split return lines, add balancing devices. etc.

Skimmer:
You will want a decent size skimmer - This is typically a single pump if IN Sump or two pumps if external. I prefer the Reef Regal skimmers. I prefer external with 2 pumps. Easier adjustment and more stable (to me) than in-sump skimmers. Unless you can setup your sump's skimmer chamber to have a constant water level.


Closed loop:
Not going to debate with you if a closed loop or in-tank wave devices are better. I will simply say that if you go with closed loop(s) then the more loops and pumps, the more varied the flow can be. I would use DC pumps here as well, as their outputs can be easily controlled.

So 6 pumps is nowhere near overkill.
If you feel that is too much then go with (3) pumps at the bare minimum.
1 in-sump recirc skimmer.
1 return pump.
1 closed loop pump.
You have zero built in redundancy. If you choose the same pump as return and closed loop, you can buy a 3rd and leave it on the shelf as a spare.

 

[SpyC]

Personally, I'd keep a backup of the skimmer pump and not worry about having both plumbed at the same time. I'd also go woth two reutn pumps and one closed loop pump unless you plan on having two loops in the system. If only one loop then keep a backup pump on hand. I'd also have a powerhead or wavemaker on a battery backup in the tank itself insace the power goes out so you can maontain some flow and oxygen exchange.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Would it work or should I forget about it and just buy 4 pumps?

As you progress through this hobby you will find that simplifying things is usually the best route.


DC pumps makes things so much easier than they used to be. You can get stuff dialed on without adding plumbing complications.


Valves are a failure point. Ball valves eventually seize up and are hard to use for flow adjustments.
Gate vales are expensive but good for flow adjustment. They often leak after years of service.
Static flow control devices tend to need to be adjusted often and can be a constant source of fiddling.

Again - if you choose the same pumps for return and closed loop you can buy a single spare (no matter how many are live on the system).

 

[Impetus]

I completely agree DC pumps are the way to go. I also looked at the Reef Octopus skimmers and see them as one of the best for the price.

I think my question was a bit misunderstood..
I would like to buy bigger 2 DC pumps and use them both for return AND the closed loop.

I would also like to use the same pumps on the skimmer. But all skimmers come with a build in pump and therefore it wouldn’t make much sense.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I completely agree DC pumps are the way to go. I also looked at the Reef Octopus skimmers and see them as one of the best for the price.

I think my question was a bit misunderstood..
I would like to buy bigger 2 DC pumps and use them both for return AND the closed loop.

You can't use the same pump for a return and a closed loop.

A closed loop takes water from the tank and returns it to the tank. When the power goes off, there is no change. The loop just stops circulating.

The return pump pushes water from the sump into the tank and gravity brings it back to the the sump. It is a waterfall. When the power goes out the display tank drains back into the sump until the returns are exposed to air.

Two totally different concepts that can not be mixed.

 

[Impetus]

You can't use the same pump for a return and a closed loop.

A closed loop takes water from the tank and returns it to the tank. When the power goes off, there is no change. The loop just stops circulating.

The return pump pushes water from the sump into the tank and gravity brings it back to the the sump. It is a waterfall. When the power goes out the display tank drains back into the sump until the returns are exposed to air.

Two totally different concepts that can not be mixed.

Adam says it can be done with manifold and gate/needle valves to adjust each feed line…

But if it would work. Idk…

 

[BeanAnimal]

Adam says it can be done with manifold and gate/needle valves to adjust each feed line…

But if it would work. Idk…

Well Adam is wrong

In all seriousness - I don't think that is what his comment was in context to. It would appear that he was addressing general flow balancing.

To that end, you would never use a "needle valve" in a return pump or closed loop plumbing setup.

 

[SpyC]

Adam says it can be done with manifold and gate/needle valves to adjust each feed line…

But if it would work. Idk…

You can't use the same pump for a return and closed loop. The return pulls from the sump while the closed loop pulls from the tank itself. even if you fed the output of the closed loop from the same pump, the tank would completely drain in the event of a power outage.

 

[reef_ranch]

i have a closed loop. I wouldn't try to tie it to my sump, which, as others point out would no longer be a closed loop. I have 2 dc pumps running two closed loops and one dc return pump running the water through the sump with a manifold to supply two frag tanks, a UV and reactors. I have a back up return pump and a backup closed loop, I keep dry. Its a quick switch but not ideal for the return since I have to be there with the return pump dies to make the switch. My skimmer has a dedicated dc pump. I have a backup for that as well, but would not be concerned if I went without skimming for a while. Same f both closed loops went down at the same time, I have powerheads in the tank as well.

So for me that's 4 pumps operating. Ideal would be 5.