PUR and PAR with Leds

[kevensquint]

Good morning,
As I attempt to adjust Led lighting. I have a question. If the zoox use 450nm readily for photosynthesis then a measurement of the popular PAR range from 150 to 300 using these pure spectrum LEDs would overwhelm the zoox wouldn't it? Considering the PAR of 150-300 is probably based on full spectrum lighting.
Basically I'm wondering if a lot less PAR for photosynthetic useful wavelengths such as 450nm (<150) would equal or pass the daily need for the zoox?

 

[jda]

Zoox gets energy from all over the spectrum... from about 350nm to about 850nm. Some operate in different ranges than others. Dana has posted a lot of articles on different proteins and clades and where they are excited - there are are some as stickies at the top.

All PAR is PUR - PAR is the human-eye visible range from 400 to 700nm. PUR goes beyond PAR into UV down to about 350nm and IR up to about 850nm. For LED that only have diodes between 400 and 700nm, then all of this is PUR and PAR both... for something like a MH that has output below the visible range in the true UV spectrum, and also IR, then their PUR can be more than their PAR. IR also can increase energy processing in corals in the form of the Emerson Effect - this is available in the mercury-based bulbs and where Orphek went with the IR diodes in their Atlantik V4... every LED might have these in the future, IMO.

Lastly, there are more reasons to use a wider spectrum than just feeding he zoox. Some corals create proteins to reflect some light. It can help with color too.

 

[A. grandis]

Yes, very well said, jda.
Here:
https://orphek.com/atlantik-v4-reef-aquarium-led-lighting/

We are getting there. People who appreciate the look of LEDs, and specially those who wants to lit their tanks with only LEDs, should also learn more about the wide range of the spectrum/needs of the organisms we keep to offer the best they can.
As I've always said... UV and IR are what LEDs were lacking the most, besides diffusion/distribution.
Orphek's web site is teaching some.
Merry Christmas to all.
Cheers.

 

[kevensquint]

I agree with all of that. But my question was anecdotal. Based on the idea too much of a specific wavelength could overwhelm the zoox

 

[kevensquint]

*as in a little UV gives humans a tan too much burns our skin. I'm not a fan of LED. I've been an MH and T5 guy for the last 20 years. So figuring out that very different light for me is challenging

 

[jda]

I do not think that any measure of PUR would forsake too much of the same spectrum... if it is in the range, then it will capture and report it. PAR is the same way.

Anecdotally speaking, there are a bunch of people who suggest that the issue with LED burning light at levels that other types will not is based on rough high peaks especially in white diodes. For example, an older RB fixture at 400 PAR will melt SPS with the whites up too high, but 400 PAR from a MH or T5 will just make them thrive. There is no real evidence of this beyond some rough spectral maps of the diodes (these show some high peaks and very low valleys in a lot of diodes) and some supposition - if you remember back to 5-6 years ago, this is why some panel makers got away from white diodes and went with the multicolor but now, most now know which diodes to avoid. Peaks and "too much" are really hard to figure out since most charts that we see are "blended" and "smoothed" out.

Just my own thoughts, but 300 PAR of the exact same diode probably would not yield the same results as 300 spread out over the whole PUR range. I am talking health, color and growth.

The UVA that penetrates the water a bit is mostly from 350nm and up. This is the part that tans humans. Sources differ, but most seem to say that this can penetrate 3-5 meters - the VAST majority of what is collected in the hobby is done on one breath and within this range. The UVB that burns skin also can really harm corals, but is filtered out quickly by the water in the wild, but also the glass bulbs/cover with Metal Halide. This UVA has a ton of energy for the proteins that can use it. 365nm is a popular diode for this, but they quickly degrade and need replaced and does not fit into the 50k hour narrative - they are also very expensive.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Let me look at my references on the DD/DT cycle. Formation of these protective xanthophylls is light-dependent, cycling even more so. The chart shows protective carotenoids absorption characteristics. Note that protection is highest at ~450 and ~470 nm - very close to the peak output of popular LEDs. Hence, these wavelengths are potentially less efficient at promoting photosynthesis.

 

[A. grandis]

Hi Dana,
Wouldn't that be dependent on specific species of organisms or the presence/ non- presence of those pigments?

Also, as jda was talking about the 365nm diodes, can even many of them in a LED fixture be compared to what some of the metal halide bulbs are able to emit using a high quality reflector?
How does it work with a LED fixture containing 1 or 2 of those little diodes?
Orphek has a good point, but is that functional?
How often should we change those diodes?
What's your opinion?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Hi Dana,
Wouldn't that be dependent on specific species of organisms or the presence/ non- presence of those pigments?

Also, as jda was talking about the 365nm diodes, can even many of them in a LED fixture be compared to what some of the metal halide bulbs are able to emit using a high quality reflector?
How does it work with a LED fixture containing 1 or 2 of those little diodes?
Orphek has a good point, but is that functional?
Howodten should we change those diodes?
What's your opinion?
Thanks in advance.

The general consensus is that most zooxanthella species/clades can produce protective xanthophylls. Many. if not most, metal halides can produce UV-A due to the mercury spectral spike at 365nm. I'd have to confirm it in the lab, but I suspect the amount of UV-A produced by LEDs is just a fraction of that of metal halide lamps and narrow bandwidths produced by LEDs doesn't mask the fluorescence caused by these wavelengths. I spoke with some German aquarists when I made a presentation in Italy, and they confirmed that IR in Orphek's luminaires is beneficial (based on results obtained through PAM fluorometry.) I've done experiments with a blacklight and confirmed UV-A promotes photosynthesis as well as causes florescence in some proteins.

 

[oreo54]

Here are some "hard" numbers if you can find some equiv LED ones..

Absolute #'s not relative #'s
http://php.scripts.psu.edu/users/s/b/sbj4/aquarium/articles/MetalHalideLamps3.htm
Note:

The UV output of the various lamps is shown in Figure 5. Comparing the UV output in this chart is somewhat misleading. The double-ended lamp has much higher output than the others, but remember this lamp requires a UV filter, which would bring this number down.

as a side note for humans..

The guidelines recommend that the exposure time for the first session on untanned skin should correspond to an effective dose not exceeding 100 J/m2;

1J = 1W

The watts unit number 1.00 W converts to 1 J/s, one joule per second. It is the EQUAL power value of 1 joule per second but in the watts power unit alternative

Something to test..
https://www.waveformlighting.com/re...MI0qKkxN6e3wIVQZppCh2wrA9XEAMYASAAEgLd6_D_BwE

Power Consumption: 4.5 Watts per foot (14.4 Watts per meter) @ 12V
UV Output @ 395 nm: 0.9 Watts per foot (2.8 Watts per meter)
UV Output @ 365 nm: 0.7 Watts per foot (2.1 Watts per meter)
Radiometric Efficiency: 22% (395 nm), 15% (365 nm)

1 meter should equal one Halide.. UV-wise IF I'm looking at this correctly..
Prob. only live for 3 years..
https://store.waveformlighting.com/products/real-uv-led-strip-lights-16-ft-5-m-reel

Times change..

For people better than me at translating geek speek..
https://www.waveformlighting.com/photometrics/TR_7010.395.pdf

 

[A. grandis]

The general consensus is that most zooxanthella species/clades can produce protective xanthophylls. Many. if not most, metal halides can produce UV-A due to the mercury spectral spike at 365nm. I'd have to confirm it in the lab, but I suspect the amount of UV-A produced by LEDs is just a fraction of that of metal halide lamps and narrow bandwidths produced by LEDs doesn't mask the fluorescence caused by these wavelengths. I spoke with some German aquarists when I made a presentation in Italy, and they confirmed that IR in Orphek's luminaires is beneficial (based on results obtained through PAM fluorometry.) I've done experiments with a blacklight and confirmed UV-A promotes photosynthesis as well as causes florescence in some proteins.

I think there are many, many variables when comparing the halide's UV emission to those LEDs in terms of intensity/spectrum and quantity of diodes, besides the different reflectors that could be used for the halides. Not to talk about different ballasts, but would probably be safe to state that a 20K bulb would already surpass greatly the Orphek's fixture in that sense. Main thing here is to know how important UV and IR plays with the organisms we keep. I see Orphek as a better option for those who like LEDs.
Corals can still be kept without the presence of UV and will adapt to many different captive environments but it's always great to see them thriving at their best with a bit of what they get in the ocean. Even coralline algae is amazingly different under halides!
Thanks, Dana!

 

[oreo54]

I think there are many, many variables when comparing the halide's UV emission to those LEDs in terms of intensity/spectrum and quantity of diodes, besides the different reflectors that could be used for the halides. Not to talk about different ballasts, but would probably be safe to state that a 150W HQI bulb would already surpass greatly the Orphek's fixture in that sense.

Of course you would.. like keep moving the goal posts.. (lite sarcasm)
Anyways w/ out real numbers..it's just a guess.
Hey every light has their differences, don't get me wrong.. and yea Orphek is probably "the king" of LED.. for now..

Some of this stuff I post isn't for comparing manuf lights but to throw ideas out for the DIY crowd.
Why shoot them down b4 even getting off the ground eh...
People playing w/ things like the strips are what furthers knowledge.. but need to give em some realistic realistic to do something..
Leave things to manuf and all LEDS would probably be blue/white.. or extinct..

No commercial light I know of uses those UV strips..

 

[A. grandis]

Here are some "hard" numbers if you can find some equiv LED ones..

Absolute #'s not relative #'s
http://php.scripts.psu.edu/users/s/b/sbj4/aquarium/articles/MetalHalideLamps3.htm
Note:

as a side note for humans..

1J = 1W


Something to test..
https://www.waveformlighting.com/re...MI0qKkxN6e3wIVQZppCh2wrA9XEAMYASAAEgLd6_D_BwE


1 meter should equal one Halide.. UV-wise IF I'm looking at this correctly..
Prob. only live for 3 years..
https://store.waveformlighting.com/products/real-uv-led-strip-lights-16-ft-5-m-reel

Times change..

For people better than me at translating geek speek..
https://www.waveformlighting.com/photometrics/TR_7010.395.pdf

Very nice article!
Thanks for the info!

 

[A. grandis]

Of course you would.. like keep moving the goal posts.. (lite sarcasm)
Anyways w/ out real numbers..it's just a guess.
Hey every light has their differences, don't get me wrong.. and yea Orphek is probably "the king" of LED.. for now..

Some of this stuff I post isn't for comparing manuf lights but to throw ideas out for the DIY crowd.
Why shoot them down b4 even getting off the ground eh...

No commercial light I know of uses those UV strips..

I know... I was thinking about the DIY...
Maybe the only way to go seriously about LED (?).
Note my edit after seen your post with the first graphic changing "150W HQI" to "2oK bulb". Haha!
You type too fast! Haha!

 

[arafas]

Here are some "hard" numbers if you can find some equiv LED ones..

Absolute #'s not relative #'s
http://php.scripts.psu.edu/users/s/b/sbj4/aquarium/articles/MetalHalideLamps3.htm
Note:

as a side note for humans..

1J = 1W


Something to test..
https://www.waveformlighting.com/re...MI0qKkxN6e3wIVQZppCh2wrA9XEAMYASAAEgLd6_D_BwE


1 meter should equal one Halide.. UV-wise IF I'm looking at this correctly..
Prob. only live for 3 years..
https://store.waveformlighting.com/products/real-uv-led-strip-lights-16-ft-5-m-reel

Times change..

For people better than me at translating geek speek..
https://www.waveformlighting.com/photometrics/TR_7010.395.pdf

I am thinking of buying a 1-UV and 1-Infrared and see what happens. I wonder if I need a dimmer for this? Looks very promising stuff

 

[Dana Riddle]

I am thinking of buying a 1-UV and 1-Infrared and see what happens. I wonder if I need a dimmer for this? Looks very promising stuff

I've got IR and UV strip light Orphek built for me. I'm more interested in the effects of LED IR on corals. Got the PAM fluorometer (check), IR light source (check), UV-transmitting filter (check), and finally, a brown coral. Now to find the full day of lab time it will take to get the setup completed. Good thing I love this sort of thing.

 

[arafas]

I've got IR and UV strip light Orphek built for me. I'm more interested in the effects of LED IR on corals. Got the PAM fluorometer (check), IR light source (check), UV-transmitting filter (check), and finally, a brown coral. Now to find the full day of lab time it will take to get the setup completed. Good thing I love this sort of thing.

Hey Dana, I would be interested to find out, love your work. I am an electrical engineer in defense industry and I learned a lot of information from you in regards of light, spectrum and etc. Thanks a million, keep it coming. I am even considering doing Masters in Optics Engineering.

 

[Dana Riddle]

Hey Dana, I would be interested to find out, love your work. I am an electrical engineer in defense industry and I learned a lot of information from you in regards of light, spectrum and etc. Thanks a million, keep it coming. I am even considering doing Masters in Optics Engineering.

Thank you for the kind words. Like anything else, I can get burned out on lab work and it takes a lot of discipline to do these procedures sometimes. Thanks again!

 

[User1]

Thank you for the kind words. Like anything else, I can get burned out on lab work and it takes a lot of discipline to do these procedures sometimes. Thanks again!

You need a helper/assistant

Seriously though - great work.

 

[User1]

Hey every light has their differences, don't get me wrong.. and yea Orphek is probably "the king" of LED.. for now..

Why is Orphek above the others at the moment? I'm in the DIY camp has you already know but wondered.