Purigen?

[hart24601]

I don't think you are going to find hard numbers on purigen, we asked BRS to do an investigation segment on it, that was a while ago. No idea if they plan to or not. But both Boomer from RC and Randy have said the same thing about purigen which is captured above and being active chemists they are familiar with the technology.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Purigen® generally ignores simple elemental compounds, having an extreme affinity for nitrogenous organics. The primary source of nitrogenous compounds in an aquarium is waste.
Purigen® controls ammonia, nitrites and nitrates by removing nitrogenous organic waste that would otherwise release these harmful compounds.

The above statements by Seachem do not convince me much.
As in a mixed reef aquarium most nitrogen is released as ammonia and urea the capability of Purigen to remove nitrogen must be very low!? As is a skimmer.
So the focus must be on DOC and TOC removal. As a skimmer removes only +- 30% of organic compounds maybe Purigen can remove the rest, which may be good or bad.
Removing to much so called "waste" may cause a lot off problems, a nitrate build up problem to begin with.
As I do not know what Purigen removes exactly it may remove to much. Does it remove organics selectively or not?

 

[hart24601]

Have you tried searching for any more of Randys thoughts? He is probably one of if not the most qualified people in the world to answer those questions.

Long story short Seachem is notorious for spotty claims. Purigen sure isn't going to destroy nor save any systems. As far as I know no one has done independent testing to see exactly what it binds so it's unlikely you are going to find a satisfactory answer. If that's not ok with you, no problem, don't run it. Your reef isn't going to be a success or failure based off that decision.

 

[rkpetersen]

I use Purigen mixed with carbon in a bag. Small quantity of media in each bag, 4 bags in the reactor, oldest bag changed out for new once a month. Keeps the media functional at a relatively steady level and without resulting in sudden changes in water chemistry. I also run a skimmer, not just for efficient removal of amphipathic organic molecules and excess bacteria, but also for gas exchange including CO2 scrubbing.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I don't think you are going to find hard numbers on purigen, we asked BRS to do an investigation segment on it, that was a while ago. No idea if they plan to or not. But both Boomer from RC and Randy have said the same thing about purigen which is captured above and being active chemists they are familiar with the technology.

After more than 10 years on the market one should expect to get propper documented information. Why this information is not provided by the manufacturar? If someone tries to sell me something claiming it does amazing things but is not able to provide me correct basic information I get suspicious . As I do not add products to my system of which I have no idea what they will do to the system but the product seems to have amazing potential I try to find out on what the amazing claims are based before making conclusions.
"that they (the polymers) would most likely have slightly different affinities" is not the conclusion I am looking for.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

plenty of compounds skimming GAC and purigen don't get. Our tanks are still nutrient soup even if using these tools.

I would question that (excluding anything to do with clams for now). Without measuring its an unknown. Systems using skimmers & carbon have far lower water column bacteria counts than natural reefs. One possible cause for this is lower DOC.

Removing to much so called "waste" may cause a lot off problems, a nitrate build up problem to begin with.
As I do not know what Purigen removes exactly it may remove to much. Does it remove organics selectively or not?

I oftn wonder about too much organic substance being stripped from the water, & this being a negative. (We can't measure the level in our tanks.

I also run a skimmer . . for efficient removal of >>> excess bacteria<<<

Only some bacteria are to suseptible to removal by skimming. How do you know you have "excess bacteria" to begin with? & are you perhaps just removing coral food ?

 

[hart24601]

After more than 10 years on the market one should expect to get propper documented information. Why this information is not provided by the manufacturar? If someone tries to sell me something claiming it does amazing things but is not able to provide me correct basic information I get suspicious . As I do not add products to my system of which I have no idea what they will do to the system but the product seems to have amazing potential I try to find out on what the amazing claims are based before making conclusions.
"that they (the polymers) would most likely have slightly different affinities" is not the conclusion I am looking for.

Sorry you are let down. I don't work for purigen and I can't say really care about purigen, yes I use it. Just was trying to help since Randy has a new job and I didn't know if he would see this post.

Here is a photo of my tanks when using purigen, carbon, and even ozone with a skimmer. I maintained a blue linckia starfish for 2 years along with cocoworms, various sponges, clams and such. I also won the acro grow out challenge in this system here. I tore it down when I got sick but it had developed bigger colonies than what you see here. This is to only show I don't think purigen hurt this system. Do I know it helped 100%? Nope.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Have you tried searching for any more of Randys thoughts? He is probably one of if not the most qualified people in the world to answer those questions.

Long story short Seachem is notorious for spotty claims. Purigen sure isn't going to destroy nor save any systems. As far as I know no one has done independent testing to see exactly what it binds so it's unlikely you are going to find a satisfactory answer. If that's not ok with you, no problem, don't run it. Your reef isn't going to be a success or failure based off that decision.

You seem to be sure! One what information this conclusion is based? Are there any tests available of the polymers used and what the consequences are when leaking into the system?

 

[hart24601]

I would question that (excluding anything to do with clams for now). Without measuring its an unknown. Systems using skimmers & carbon have far lower water column bacteria counts than natural reefs. One possible cause for this is lower DOC.


I oftn wonder about too much organic substance being stripped from the water, & this being a negative. (We can't measure the level in our tanks.



Only some bacteria are to suseptible to removal by skimming. How do you know you have "excess bacteria" to begin with? & are you perhaps just removing coral food ?

My personal experience above is what I based my answers off of. You may think that is a terrible tank and yours is way better. That's great! But this is my experience.

 

[hart24601]

You seem to be sure! One what information this conclusion is based? Are there any tests available of the polymers used and what the consequences are when leaking into the system?

Again I told you my answers are from Randy whom I trust. I do not see why me directly quoting him is leading to this hostility. I attempted to give you the best source I believe is out there on this product. Why are you acting like this over a inexpensive product? I do apologise for whatever I did to upset you.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Here is a photo of my tanks when using purigen, carbon, and even ozone with a skimmer.

Nice foto's of amazing tanks!
Clear water does not tell a thing of what the product does axactly. Maybe Purigen just clears the water.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

My personal experience above is what I based my answers off of. You may think that is a terrible tank and yours is way better. That's great! But this is my experience.

I never said or thought that.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Again I told you my answers are from Randy whom I trust. I do not see why me directly quoting him is leading to this hostility. I attempted to give you the best source I believe is out there on this product. Why are you acting like this over a inexpensive product? I do apologise for whatever I did to upset you.

I am not upset and I apoligise if I made you feel this way.
I just want to find information.
You said you were sure so I suposed you had the information on wich this claim is based. Based on what I know for the moment I even can not say the product is safe to use. Do the polymers leak into the system? I do not know!
I get not used to the way " the thruth" travels around on the internet.
In europe this product is selling at +- 80€/ l not including the regeneration. For me this is not inexpensive, certainly when the only thing what it seems to do is clearing the water. And if it was very cheap, based on the available information I have collected till now I can not say it is safe to use.
I thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Can Purigen be used in an aquaculture system? Will the polymers not show up in the end product?

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Can Purigen be used in an aquaculture system? Will the polymers not show up in the end product?

I think it's good to ask questions rather than just assume. If you can't get the answers you're looking for from the company, don't use it.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I oftn wonder about too much organic substance being stripped from the water, & this being a negative. (We can't measure the level in our tanks.

?

Why nitrates may build up in a well lit aquarium and are not used up by the photoautotrops? Organic "waste" may deliver the building materials needed.
As a skimmer removes only a small amouth of DOC and TOC, determined to be max +- 35%, +- 65% is left over to be used. But in a lot of cases this is not enough to provide the building materials needed to balance the nitrogen production. Managing the skimmer may solve a lot of common problems linked to the availability of nutrients and building materials.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

As a skimmer removes only a small amouth of DOC and TOC, determined to be max +- 35%, +- 65% is left over to be used. But in a lot of cases this is not enough to provide the building materials needed to balance the nitrogen production. Managing the skimmer may solve a lot of commen problems linked to the availability of nutrients and buildingmaterials.

Using Purigen may or may not change the biological balance drastically removing the buildingmaterials for many organismn responsible for keeping the balance.

As a skimmer is very selective in removing organics we are looking out for an other and a safe way to remove DOC and TOC. As Seachem claimes Purigen removes both hydrophilic and hydrophobic compounds Purigen may be a better solution. But we are not able to find any proof for this claim made by Seachem.

Feldman states "

1. GAC filtration is quite effective at stripping reef tank water of its TOC load, removing 60 - 85% of the TOC present."

It's possible that ROX 0.8 carbon, used correctly, removes even more. So Purigen wouldn't make any appreciable difference.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Using Purigen may or may not change the biological balance drastically removing the buildingmaterials for many organismn responsible for keeping the balance.

As a skimmer is very selective in removing organics we are looking out for an other and a safe way to remove DOC and TOC. As Seachem claimes Purigen removes both hydrophilic and hydrophobic compounds Purigen may be a better solution. But we are not able to find any proof for this claim made by Seachem.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Feldman states "

1. GAC filtration is quite effective at stripping reef tank water of its TOC load, removing 60 - 85% of the TOC present."

It's possible that ROX 0.8 carbon, used correctly, removes even more. So Purigen wouldn't make any appreciable difference.

GAC also absorbes selectively. It would be nice if 60-85% of all TOC would be removed but it leaves the polar compounds. The water exchange rate may be very limited. About GAC we have about all information we need . Only about its ability to remove bio-toxines we need more information.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

How Purigen handles polair and un-polair organic compounds?