Pyramid Butterfly ID skin change please

[gentlefish]

I bought 2 Pyramids. Left them for 1 extra week at the LFS. Both were quoted dewormed and subtherapeutic copper, slight hyposalinity.Both ate well. One noted with white sand corn size nodule on body.
In observation, both looked well, but one died within 36h (picture attached). 5 days later ick. Cupramine started. Ick resolved but ongoing therapy with copper. The module however increased in size to 1/24 inch or so and about 2-3 on each body side. Seems to wane a bit now. However I lost my nerve and dosed Prazi, now second course. Nothing on the fins. Eats great. Any good thoughts to this? Thanks for your input!

 

[Pistol Peet]

Local fish stores rarely run Copper at therapeutic levels they run just barely enough copper to make the ich not visible and then they sell the fish depending upon the copper you need to run anywhere from 2.0 to 2.5 parts per million I used coppersafe which is 2.5 parts per million for a minimum of 21 days

 

[Pistol Peet]

With this being said from the pictures of the fish I'm not a hundred percent sure that that is indeed ich parasites there is just something about them spots that don't look completely right for ich

 

[gentlefish]

Local fish stores rarely run Copper at therapeutic levels they run just barely enough copper to make the ich not visible and then they sell the fish depending upon the copper you need to run anywhere from 2.0 to 2.5 parts per million I used coppersafe which is 2.5 parts per million for a minimum of 21 days

Do you believe, that the fish I lost could have had gill ick? I failed to see behavioural changes. Thanks for the reply!

 

[Pistol Peet]

Do you believe, that the fish I lost could have had gill ick? I failed to see behavioural changes. Thanks for the reply!

It is definitely possible this seems to be the favorite spot for them in the spot that they end up affecting first this is purely antidotal in my own personal experience though but it is definitely possible in my experience however fish that I've had rarely die from it just in the gills without actually seeing a total infestation across the body and fins as well this seems to be the point at which it over runs their immune system

 

[Pistol Peet]

There is a strong possibility that they could have had internal parasites other than just in the gills intestinal tract and so forth they could have pushed this over the top If this is the case then there's a couple different treatments that you can do I think it's Metroplex and kanaplex but I could always double-check this for you

 

[gentlefish]

With this being said from the pictures of the fish I'm not a hundred percent sure that that is indeed ich parasites there is just something about them spots that don't look completely right for ich

Oh let me post the ick picture-since resolved

 

[Pistol Peet]

Oh let me post the ick picture-since resolved

That looks more like ich me now that it's in the fins as well have you tried the tank transfer method this is actually my preferred go to method for treating at as I feel it's less detrimental to the fish no harsh chemicals no poison none of that and yes copper is poisonous to fish as well if it's in enough doses or a long enough time frame this is why I usually choose to do the tank transfer method and I've done it with great success

 

[Pistol Peet]

Is this a picture of the fish in your display tank or quarantine tank?

 

[JumboShrimp]

I bought two, will probably never buy one again. One didn’t last but maybe a week, the other about 9 months but was never healthy. There were these fairly large, strange translucent areas in the body, and some scale issues; you can search other R2R threads about other people’s similar experiences.

 

[gentlefish]

Is this a picture of the fish in your display tank or quarantine tank?

Sorry, bit confusing.
Fist of all, you are right to promote TTM. Now of cause I run therapeutic cupramine and Prazi in a Hospital Tank. That of cause limits my ability to react immediately to the remaining spots that also to me, do not seem like ick.

 

[Pistol Peet]

Sorry, bit confusing.
Fist of all, you are right to promote TTM. Now of cause I run therapeutic cupramine and Prazi in a Hospital Tank. That of cause limits my ability to react immediately to the remaining spots that also to me, do not seem like ick.

Yes the picture that only have the two spots on them didn't seem like ich spots to me the one with the spots through the fins definitely did look like ich parasites.

 

[Thaxxx]

If your talking about those 2 white spots, that is a common thing to see on a Pyrimid.
Also black or dark spots also. It's just missing, or damaged scales. Rarely will you see one with no flaws on the body. Without a clearer picture, that is my experience with them. Very common. Also in the morning before the lights go on you'll most likely see a large normally oval shape dark colored spot on the white part of the body.

Are there any spots on the yellow part or on his face?

 

[gentlefish]

If your talking about those 2 white spots, that is a common thing to see on a Pyrimid.
Also black or dark spots also. It's just missing, or damaged scales. Rarely will you see one with no flaws on the body. Without a clearer picture, that is my experience with them. Very common. Also in the morning before the lights go on you'll most likely see a large normally oval shape dark colored spot on the white part of the body.

Are there any spots on the yellow part or on his face?

That is an important observation. I had looked at online pictures, but there may well be a byass to publish unblemished skin. And no, the nodules are only in the white body area.

 

[JumboShrimp]

https://www.reef2reef.com/attachments/20200923_121952-jpg.1797054/

This is someone else’s fish here on R2R, but it is how mine looked— never looked pristine; kind of like @Thaxxx was saying.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

Do you believe, that the fish I lost could have had gill ick? I failed to see behavioural changes. Thanks for the reply!

There isn't anything such as "gill ich", Cryptocaryon prefers to subsist on a fish's skin, but will invade the gills in severe infections. Typically, people misdiagnose Amyloodinium (velvet) as "gill ich" due to the propensity of that disease to infect the gills first and cause rapid breathing. The spots of velvet can be surprisingly large, causing people to think it is ich.

As was mentioned, the larger white spots are pretty common on new pyramids, I never worry about them. What I do worry about are Neobenedenia flukes. This species almost always has these. Given that your LFS ran a sub-therapeutic copper level, I would also doubt their "deworming" as Neo is very difficult to control. If you see cloudy eyes on this fish, or tattered fins for no reason, consider giving it a 5 minute diagnostic FW dip to look for Neo. That will show up at the bottom of the dip container like tiny gray scale looking things.

Sorry - I can't tell you why the first one died....

Jay

 

[gentlefish]

https://www.reef2reef.com/attachments/20200923_121952-jpg.1797054/

This is someone else’s fish here on R2R, but it is how mine looked— never looked pristine; kind of like @Thaxxx was saying.

To me, damage of scales in Butterfyfish seem to heal very slow. The nodules...I did not know.

 

[gentlefish]

There isn't anything such as "gill ich", Cryptocaryon prefers to subsist on a fish's skin, but will invade the gills in severe infections. Typically, people misdiagnose Amyloodinium (velvet) as "gill ich" due to the propensity of that disease to infect the gills first and cause rapid breathing. The spots of velvet can be surprisingly large, causing people to think it is ich.

As was mentioned, the larger white spots are pretty common on new pyramids, I never worry about them. What I do worry about are Neobenedenia flukes. This species almost always has these. Given that your LFS ran a sub-therapeutic copper level, I would also doubt their "deworming" as Neo is very difficult to control. If you see cloudy eyes on this fish, or tattered fins for no reason, consider giving it a 5 minute diagnostic FW dip to look for Neo. That will show up at the bottom of the dip container like tiny gray scale looking things.

Sorry - I can't tell you why the first one died....

Jay

Thank you also for you thread on Neo and it’s long cycle.

 

[Thaxxx]

Pyrimids are very very slow healers.
Mine has a tail nick that my female clown gave him that's been there 4 months now. Still not all the way healed.

 

[JumboShrimp]

(Compared to my Pyramid, I had a Pearlscale Butterfly that always looked gorgeous!)