QT by your LFS

Fishtheatre · Nov 14, 2019

My lFS posted this and i was thinking...What do you guys think about the idea that LFS’s should have a responsibility to ensure the health of their product by doing QT?

Fishtheatre · Nov 14, 2019

What do you guys think about the idea that LFS’s should have a responsibility to ensure the health of their product by doing QT?

pcon · Nov 14, 2019

I don't trust any fish store which deals with fish in large quantity to take the time or care that I will in my QT and conditioning process. I do prefer fish retailers who take the time to condition their fish, but I don't trust any of them to properly eliminate disease in the fish. I think this opinion is generally shared by most of the people who are on the high biosecurity camp.
Worthy of note, very often the LFS is not the appropriate setting for conditioning very difficult fish. Often I go to specialized online retailers well known for their conditioning, DD, MC or TSM, or arrange my schedule to pick up fish immediately on their arrival from wholesalers to my local fish store. It all comes down to how much you trust your LFS' procedures.

Halal Hotdog · Nov 14, 2019

I love the idea, however it isn't practical. To complete a 4 week medicated QT takes a lot of resources and manpower. The cost of fish would skyrocket. I feel where we would all benefit is from research on fish disease and better medications than what's currently available. Most of the medications we use are a shotgun approach to fish disease.

Greg P · Nov 14, 2019

I'd be perfectly happy purchasing fish from someone who takes the time to thoroughly QT/treat critters and I'd pay a much higher price for sure

mattzang · Nov 14, 2019

i'd be wary of a lfs that claims they're legit QTing fish. there's an lfs like that near me and they're full of crap. they think a couple of days in copper at who knows what level is good enough. they also think ich is just fine and walk around pouring prazi into their tanks like it's doing anything.

i'm sure there are examples out there, but i'd request to see their setup and ask them what their procedures are. the lfs i'm talking about is a tiny store that in no way is about to be qting anything

there's another lfs further from me that tries to do his best. but i've also been at his shop when he's acclimating fish and he doesn't put everything into his qt system first. and i doubt he doesn't add new fish every week.

Daniel@R2R · Nov 14, 2019

1) I do think an LFS should do their best to ensure that the livestock in their temporary care receives adequate care to be healthy and thriving until it reaches its permanent home.
2) I do not believe that an LFS has any obligation (moral or ethical) to QT and/or prophylactically treat fish. Such an undertaking is quite often cost and space prohibitive for most businesses. They are responsible for ensuring (to the best of their ability) that a fish is well cared for while at their shop (they maintain their tanks well, they aren't being lazy about maintenance, they're observing the fish in their care for any specific issues, they're feeding and caring for the fish well).
3) I believe QTing a fish for you by the LFS should be seen as going "above and beyond" what is obligatory, and a customer should expect to compensate them for that added service/care.
4) I would definitely pay extra for this.

Bryknicks · Nov 14, 2019

Hey OP, I haven't used them for any recent fish purchases but I've spoken with Cheryl and do think that they properly QT their livestock prior to putting them on display. I also recently found a store in Pompano Beach that does QT and treat all their fish and made my first purchase there. The fish was perfectly healthy and added to my display after a 2 week waiting period in order to ensure that it was indeed healthy. I took a tour and the back of the store is set up with at least 10 QT/hospital tanks and I would feel comfortable purchasing all my livestock from them moving forward. The best part was that the price for the fish was right on par, maybe even cheaper than all others in the area.

I like the idea and believe that all LFS should take the time to QT and treat all livestock. I don't mind at all paying extra money for a health specimen.

Edit: That specific store in Pompano also said if I purchased fish anywhere else, they would QT and treat for me. I don't need that service as I have the toils to do this myself, but its good to know for others if they need that help.

Mr Fishface · Nov 14, 2019

I think lfs should qt. Its good practice to sell healthy animals. Having said that i dont trust one of my lfs if they did qt. Their sketchy as is and i don't think they would do it right. I have another lfs who, if they said they qt, i would hands down pay for that service.

Tuffyyyyy · Nov 14, 2019

I'm sure I'm in the minority here but I take issue with the "people don't buy diseased dogs & cats" comment. I have 2 dogs and 3 cats that were all rescued, and both of the dogs came with illnesses. The first thing you should be doing is taking your new pet to the vet when you get them, regardless of how well they appeared at the store/breeder/pound, I don't think it's any different than quarantining your fish.

Fishtheatre · Nov 17, 2019

pcon said:
I don't trust any fish store which deals with fish in large quantity to take the time or care that I will in my QT and conditioning process. I do prefer fish retailers who take the time to condition their fish, but I don't trust any of them to properly eliminate disease in the fish. I think this opinion is generally shared by most of the people who are on the high biosecurity camp.
Worthy of note, very often the LFS is not the appropriate setting for conditioning very difficult fish. Often I go to specialized online retailers well known for their conditioning, DD, MC or TSM, or arrange my schedule to pick up fish immediately on their arrival from wholesalers to my local fish store. It all comes down to how much you trust your LFS' procedures.

You make irrefutable points here
I can see how one wouldn’t trust a LFS’s practices. After all that’s why we quarantine. I’ve been to way too many experienced or not LFS that give out misinformation on disease whether it’s the advice to feed fish to build up their immune systems to starve off parasites or that parasites are like a common cold and will always be a part of an aquarium. But that’s why i’d advocate better education for retailers and their employees and better practices including QT. But I can see why companies wouldn’t want to take on the expense.

by conditioning you mean, acclimating? Yeah, even if I were to purchase from a place that guaranteed thorough QT, I would still of course do proper acclimation and even some time for observation. Perhaps in a separate tank which might be a step or two away from QT anyway. ‍

Hey, you mentioned some reputable sites to purchase fish by acronym, (DD,MC,TSM) can you give me the full names so I can use them? Thanks.

Fishtheatre · Nov 17, 2019

Bryknicks said:
Hey OP, I haven't used them for any recent fish purchases but I've spoken with Cheryl and do think that they properly QT their livestock prior to putting them on display. I also recently found a store in Pompano Beach that does QT and treat all their fish and made my first purchase there. The fish was perfectly healthy and added to my display after a 2 week waiting period in order to ensure that it was indeed healthy. I took a tour and the back of the store is set up with at least 10 QT/hospital tanks and I would feel comfortable purchasing all my livestock from them moving forward. The best part was that the price for the fish was right on par, maybe even cheaper than all others in the area.

I like the idea and believe that all LFS should take the time to QT and treat all livestock. I don't mind at all paying extra money for a health specimen.

Edit: That specific store in Pompano also said if I purchased fish anywhere else, they would QT and treat for me. I don't need that service as I have the toils to do this myself, but its good to know for others if they need that help.

thanks for the reply and info! What is the place in Pompano you are referring to? I’d love to visit there soon. Thanks!

Fishtheatre · Nov 17, 2019

Tuffyyyyy said:
I'm sure I'm in the minority here but I take issue with the "people don't buy diseased dogs & cats" comment. I have 2 dogs and 3 cats that were all rescued, and both of the dogs came with illnesses. The first thing you should be doing is taking your new pet to the vet when you get them, regardless of how well they appeared at the store/breeder/pound, I don't think it's any different than quarantining your fish.

While I understand that all animals you purchase should go to your vet asap just like a child to the pediatrician, it’s not to quarantine per se but as a checkup, to build a history and familiarity with a patient and to gather whatever other pertinent information you’d want. While one can argue these things overlap with quarantine, I wouldn’t say it’s apples to apples but I digress.

i’ve purchased multiple dogs and the occasional cat from the Humane society and my Westie from a reputable breeder. All were properly taken care of medically from their respective proprietors. While I would still take them to the vet for the above reasons, I wouldn’t quarantine them from my other animals nor would I give them medications proactively to address any unknown maladies. I’d be surprised if you purchased your animals from reputable breeders or the Humane society or even a reputable store and they came with parasites. Hereditary diseases perhaps but when you dealing with pure breeds that’s to be expected.

Halal Hotdog · Nov 17, 2019

Fishtheatre said:
While I understand that all animals you purchase should go to your vet asap just like a child to the pediatrician, it’s not to quarantine per se but as a checkup, to build a history and familiarity with a patient and to gather whatever other pertinent information you’d want. While one can argue these things overlap with quarantine, I wouldn’t say it’s apples to apples but I digress.

i’ve purchased multiple dogs and the occasional cat from the Humane society and my Westie from a reputable breeder. All were properly taken care of medically from their respective proprietors. While I would still take them to the vet for the above reasons, I wouldn’t quarantine them from my other animals nor would I give them medications proactively to address any unknown maladies. I’d be surprised if you purchased your animals from reputable breeders or the Humane society or even a reputable store and they came with parasites. Hereditary diseases perhaps but when you dealing with pure breeds that’s to be expected.

Your analogy is flawed. There is no group getting these fish healthy. When animals have heart worms you treat them, not just feed and hope for the best. You don't introduce animals with a fatally contagious diseases into a group. QT is fishkeeping form of taking them to the vet.

ReefDoc · Nov 17, 2019

I love Hydra and Cheryl. With that being said, I bought a blue tang from them that had cleared QT.
Immediately upon putting it into my tank ( with better lighting), I noticed a spot of ich on the dorsal fin. Needless to say, I experienced an ich outbreak in my tank. Lesson learned, their 2 week QT protocol is not long enough to be effective.

Fishtheatre · Nov 17, 2019

ReefDoc said:
I love Hydra and Cheryl. With that being said, I bought a blue tang from them that had cleared QT.
Immediately upon putting it into my tank ( with better lighting), I noticed a spot of ich on the dorsal fin. Needless to say, I experienced an ich outbreak in my tank. Lesson learned, their 2 week QT protocol is not long enough to be effective.

yeah, one perhaps flaw in their method I noticed is that they quarantine and treat groups of fish on different timelines in the same tank. Not sure if that would be an issue but I imagine so.

Fishtheatre · Nov 17, 2019

Halal Hotdog said:
Your analogy is flawed. There is no group getting these fish healthy. When animals have heart worms you treat them, not just feed and hope for the best. You don't introduce animals with a fatally contagious diseases into a group. QT is fishkeeping form of taking them to the vet.

I would hope one would treat heart worms. Not quite following your logic here, but I understand that a lot of fish, perhaps the majority of which have a disease issue which is furthered by having everything in the same system and or tank. I am not advocating doing away with QT or not going to a vet, I am just suggesting that your LFS should do more in terms of QT and disease management

in respect to dogs and cats, my point is that the proprietor treats then there and ensures a healthy pet or if there is an issue in the AHS case, they would supply initial medication and you’d follow up. But for the most part they are treated and evaluated there with their staff vet. I would not advocate introducing any animal with a fatal contagious disease

pcon · Nov 17, 2019

Fishtheatre said:
by conditioning you mean, acclimating? Yeah, even if I were to purchase from a place that guaranteed thorough QT, I would still of course do proper acclimation and even some time for observation. Perhaps in a separate tank which might be a step or two away from QT anyway. ‍♂

Hey, you mentioned some reputable sites to purchase fish by acronym, (DD,MC,TSM) can you give me the full names so I can use them? Thanks.

Conditioning refers to the process of adapting the fish to captivity. This involves things like getting them to eat prepared foods from the water column. getting fish on the tanks lighting schedule. adapting deep water fish to intense aquarium lights and warmer temperatures. This is an important and often intertwined process to Quarantine for disease, but separated and often more difficult process.

DD refers to Liveaquaria's Divers Den, MC is Elliot at Marine Collectors, TSM Im actually not sure what it stands for but is TSM corals

Fishtheatre · Nov 17, 2019

pcon said:
Conditioning refers to the process of adapting the fish to captivity. This involves things like getting them to eat prepared foods from the water column. getting fish on the tanks lighting schedule. adapting deep water fish to intense aquarium lights and warmer temperatures. This is an important and often intertwined process to Quarantine for disease, but separated and often more difficult process.

DD refers to Liveaquaria's Divers Den, MC is Elliot at Marine Collectors, TSM Im actually not sure what it stands for but is TSM corals

Thanks for the info, pcon. So you purchase from these particular three retailers due to their conditioning practices, however you’d still QT anything purchased from them, am I correct in assuming that?

I guess what i’m learning here is that ultimately being a reefer or even having just a FO or LRO tank is much more complex than what a “casual” pet owner or even aspiring hobbyist must expect. Going out to buy a fish tank and becoming a caretaker to these animals involves a lot more than just having a proper setup and addressing issues as they come. I think there is a lot of injustice going on at LFS’s where the newcomer isn’t informed on what is needed. It’s quite the investment. And I imagine most of these things aren’t communicated to your average buyer. you need a QT tank, a separate QT for corals/inverts/ect. Even live rock has to be QT’d I gather. Most likely you will be buying multiple medications and should get proficient in techniques like fresh water dipping. I think this is quite a lot to take on for your typical person that wants to have fish. The space alone is significant. I understand the necessity to it. I guess these are the winter sports of pets sort of speak.

pcon · Nov 17, 2019

According to industry data the average marine "hobbyist" lasts 18 months. The LFS is not in the business of creating exceptional fishkeepers and hobbyists. The LFS is in the business of selling fish, and equipment. The less you know the easier it is to do that.

More optimistically there is a mountain of information and best practice in this hobby. Most hobbyists don't follow every best practice. LFS people are at best good hobbyists themselves, and at worst not marine hobbyists at all. It's important to not rely on them as ones primary or exclusive source of information, that's not their job.