QT Disaster! Need advice

Klyle · Dec 22, 2022

Here goes... I had a clown and a newly bought (4 months) filefish in a tank together. One day the filefish stopped eating and died 3-4 days later. The only thing I noticed was heavy breathing, not eating, and the last few hours very eradicate swimming. Decided to get the clown in qt asap, then going fallow was the best thing. Got her into a qt and took the opportunity to purchase some friends. Went to lfs the next day and got a royal gramma, tailspot blenny, and watchman goby. Slowly brought up copper to 2.5 and they all did great (minus the goby who was bullied, but he made it.) Kept them there for 16 days, again minus the goby who was moved to separate tank at 14 days. On day 16 I got home from working a late day, and hurriedly transferred all three fish to a new, sterile qt with no medicated water. The next morning blenny was dead, clown didn't look great, and the gramma looked worse- fast breathing. Unfortunately I didn't have a choice to not go to work that day. When I got home, the gramma was dead but the clown was still hanging in there, although he did seem to be breathing faster than usual. I assessed the situation and the only option I had available at the time was to get him the ef out of that tank and into the dt that was in its 27th day of fallow (ing?) Before I ask my question I'll say idk what killed them. Technically I killed them but I don't know how. It's possible I grabbed the wrong 5g bucket in the basement to temporarily put the fish in while I set up the new tank- i had been bleaching equipment and such the night before and my basement was a whirlwind of clean/ dirty/ bleachy equipment and parts. Or maybe a salinity mismatch caused by using a colder than usual hydrometer...idk what it was but I'm devastated by it, and trying to learn as much as I can so I never repeat that mistake again. This was my first qt and I've learned a TON by doing it, despite reefing since the 90s. WHAT DO I DO NOW? I bought a couple black mollies and they're in there now. I figured if there is still some bad stuff maybe they'll get it before the clown, but i know that's a stretch. I realllllly don't want to have to go through this whole qt thing again. Should I try to gravel vac the top layer of my sandbed? Anything to lessen the chance of my clown getting whatever killed the filefish a month ago? Thanks

Jay Hemdal · Dec 22, 2022

Well, to start - what copper product did you use, and what test kit?
What was the ammonia reading on the new sterile tank?

Jay

HankstankXXL750 · Dec 22, 2022

As far as the QT, we’re they seeded with established biological filter? Did you test for ammonia or use an ammonia badge?

Could just be they died from ammonia?

Jarboy · Dec 22, 2022

I label my buckets, some are aq use only, some are dirty, and some are bleach/vinegar. Possibly mixing them is a disaster.

vetteguy53081 · Dec 22, 2022

Type of copper and the level maintained will be the concern. The big one will be the statement you made about the dirty bucket and especially working your way to 5.5ppm assuming this was coppersafe.
You cannot ramp up copper levels but rather achieve levels within 24 no more than 36 hours.
Also I would wait for purchase of any fish rather than adding to a QT tank with limited filtration and oxygen

Sharkbait19 · Dec 22, 2022

Were the fish only in copper for 14 days?
If so, it’s possible there was a velvet infection that was only being suppressed and once out of copper it took over.
That said, ammonia sounds like it would be the primary culprit due to fish being transferred into a sterile, potentially uncycled, environment.

jabberwock · Dec 22, 2022

I am no expert, but I just want to say, I think what you are saying is that you were having problems with your livestock (illness/death), and so you went out and bought more livestock? To take advantage of a quarantine situation?

I am not sure this was the best course of action. No judgement, just making a point.

threebuoys · Dec 22, 2022

Sounds like the QT process had gone well for the first 15 days at which time you decided to move them out of QT. At that point, the **** hit the fan and within 24 hours the fish died.

You listed several things that may have occurred during the tank change, each of which could have been the culprit. Without the ability to test the water for contaminants, I'm afraid you will never know what occurred. I suspect you have an idea what was most likely.

Others have weighed in on things that may have not been properly handled. My thoughts are that the QT process was going well with the most noteworthy observation being that a quick copper ramp up to 2.5 ppm (24 hrs) is much favored over a slow ramp up over several days.

The second observation is that you rushed the end of the copper treatment by stopping at day 15 when our protocol recommends 30 days. AT this point, the fish in QT were alive with no obvious distress.

What happened after that in one way or another led to an environmental catastrophe. That resulted in the fish death, not the actual QT process.

Whether it was salinity, ammonia, temperature, bleach, or other contaminants, the takeaway is start over. Completely clean your QT set up, using bleach is fine. Ramp up the copper quickly. QT with copper for 30 days. Treat with prazi at least twice. And whatever you do, take your time and take the steps to keep the QT environment clean and managed. If that means you have to keep the fish in QT for a few extra days until you have the time to make the switch over, then that's just what you have to do. I will also point out that using mollies as the "canary" is generally not very practical.

I'm sure you already know all of this. Learn from the experience and I'm sure you'll be successful.

Klyle · Dec 22, 2022

HankstankXXXL750 said:
As far as the QT, we’re they seeded with established biological filter? Did you test for ammonia or use an ammonia badge?

Could just be they died from ammonia?

No ammonia. Ammonia badge, check. Seneye, check. They went immediately downhill after the move to sterile tank. Like I said in the post, it was probably residual chlorine from using the wrong bucket. My situation now is that I have moved my clownfish back to the fallow dt.

Klyle · Dec 22, 2022

vetteguy53081 said:
Type of copper and the level maintained will be the concern. The big one will be the statement you made about the dirty bucket and especially working your way to 5.5ppm assuming this was coppersafe.
You cannot ramp up copper levels but rather achieve levels within 24 no more than 36 hours.
Also I would wait for purchase of any fish rather than adding to a QT tank with limited filtration and oxygen

I used copper power. Literally everything I've read said to slowly raise to 2.5 over a week. Exactly what I did. The copper part of the qt went flawless. Who said anything about limited filtration and oxygen? That was certainly not the case. I asked for advice about the clownfish that's now back in the dt I was going fallow in, not treating with copper.

Klyle · Dec 22, 2022

jabberwock said:
I am no expert, but I just want to say, I think what you are saying is that you were having problems with your livestock (illness/death), and so you went out and bought more livestock? To take advantage of a quarantine situation?

I am not sure this was the best course of action. No judgement, just making a point.

The fish i moved to qt showed no symptoms and I wanted to add new fish soon regardless. I really don't see what the issue with that would have been.

Klyle · Dec 22, 2022

threebuoys said:
Sounds like the QT process had gone well for the first 15 days at which time you decided to move them out of QT. At that point, the **** hit the fan and within 24 hours the fish died.

You listed several things that may have occurred during the tank change, each of which could have been the culprit. Without the ability to test the water for contaminants, I'm afraid you will never know what occurred. I suspect you have an idea what was most likely.

Others have weighed in on things that may have not been properly handled. My thoughts are that the QT process was going well with the most noteworthy observation being that a quick copper ramp up to 2.5 ppm (24 hrs) is much favored over a slow ramp up over several days.

The second observation is that you rushed the end of the copper treatment by stopping at day 15 when our protocol recommends 30 days. AT this point, the fish in QT were alive with no obvious distress.

What happened after that in one way or another led to an environmental catastrophe. That resulted in the fish death, not the actual QT process.

Whether it was salinity, ammonia, temperature, bleach, or other contaminants, the takeaway is start over. Completely clean your QT set up, using bleach is fine. Ramp up the copper quickly. QT with copper for 30 days. Treat with prazi at least twice. And whatever you do, take your time and take the steps to keep the QT environment clean and managed. If that means you have to keep the fish in QT for a few extra days until you have the time to make the switch over, then that's just what you have to do. I will also point out that using mollies as the "canary" is generally not very practical.

I'm sure you already know all of this. Learn from the experience and I'm sure you'll be successful.

Everything i have read about using copper power in qt is to ramp it up slowly over about a week... like that's what Humblefish recommends. I realize 30 days is optimal but have also read in many places 14 days will do. Regardless of it being residual bleach, mismatched params, whatever, the main thing (which i noted) was rushing the situation after work and screwing something up. I really appreciate your insight. But my question was will removing some of my dt sandbed lessen the chances of my clown catching whatever it may be- if anything? I realize now I probably should have posted this in a different manner or context, if at all.

Klyle · Dec 22, 2022

I realize that this was 110% my fault and I have learned many lessons from the experience. The copper part of the qt went perfect as far as I can tell. The issue was the transfer out of copper. I'm asking if by chance velvet killed the original fish in my dt, which my clown is now back in after 27 days, will removing some of the sand make sense? I won't be able to move the fish back to qt until after the weekend, if I even do that. Maybe a uv sterilizer MIGHT help? This is what I want to know...

Klyle · Dec 22, 2022

Jay Hemdal said:
Well, to start - what copper product did you use, and what test kit?
What was the ammonia reading on the new sterile tank?

Jay

Copper power. Hanna Checker. I checked the level every day. I don't remember the exact number but the seneye was in the green and the badge was brand new so probably not registering yet.

Klyle · Dec 22, 2022

⁴

Jay Hemdal said:
Well, to start - what copper product did you use, and what test kit?
What was the ammonia reading on the new sterile tank?

Jay

Would it even have been possible for there to be an ammonia buildup that fast in a brand new 20g with 3 small fish? No food added. First fish dead within 12 hrs

Klyle · Dec 22, 2022

Klyle said:
⁴

Would it even have been possible for there to be an ammonia buildup that fast in a brand new 20g with 3 small fish? No food added. First fish dead within 12 hrs

I was using 2 year cycled marine pure

Klyle · Dec 22, 2022

Jay Hemdal said:
Well, to start - what copper product did you use, and what test kit?
What was the ammonia reading on the new sterile tank?

Jay

I actually have one more question if you don't mind... saying I decide to leave the fish in the dt and she doesn't get sick- i never actually confirmed a disease in the dt, just a dead fish. How long do I need to wait before I can safely assume there is no possibility of velvet or any other disease or pathogen in the dt, and add new (properly qt'd) fish? Thanks Jay

Jay Hemdal · Dec 22, 2022

Klyle said:
⁴

Would it even have been possible for there to be an ammonia buildup that fast in a brand new 20g with 3 small fish? No food added. First fish dead within 12 hrs

Not 12 hours, but 24 hours for sure.
Jay

vetteguy53081 · Dec 22, 2022

Klyle said:
I used copper power. Literally everything I've read said to slowly raise to 2.5 over a week. Exactly what I did. The copper part of the qt went flawless. Who said anything about limited filtration and oxygen? That was certainly not the case. I asked for advice about the clownfish that's now back in the dt I was going fallow in, not treating with copper.

Most QT tanks will have lower level of O2 and basic filtration which is why you want to monitor ammonia levels but you seem to be reluctant to suggestions but rather read and do your own thing with dirty buckets, etc
Good luck with your endeavors.

Klyle · Dec 22, 2022

vetteguy53081 said:
Most QT tanks will have lower level of O2 and basic filtration which is why you want to monitor ammonia levels but you seem to be reluctant to suggestions but rather read and do your own thing with dirty buckets, etc
Good luck with your endeavors.

I specifically said in the beginning of the post there were no problems during the 16 day treatment. I also specifically stated what the entire point of my post was about; which was what to do with the situation I am faced with at the moment. Your response seemed to direct my problems to what copper product I used when it's very obvious nothing about the copper was an issue. It seems like every time I post something, people want to pick it apart and point out the obvious, not actuality answer the question i had in the first place. Thanks