QT: Micron and UV Filtration Concept

[GARRIGA]

If a container could be 100% filtered through a 0.5 micron filter then the effluent fed through an adequate UV filter could that replace the TTM? For example, if that container had a plenum at the bottom covered by matrix yet the bottom of the container was drilled for ensuring 100% of the water passed through several particulate filters (downsizing from 100 micron to 0.5 micron) then that UV before returning to the tank and flow was fast enough that any free swimming stage would be unable to resist the pull then wouldn't this effectively replace the TTM? Since TTM is used to separate host from parasite then if parasite can be removed before ability to infest host the problem should be solved. Thoughts?

Purpose of the matrix is to provide biological filtration for the duration normally required with TTM. Fish can be pulled and treated with hydrogen peroxide or other dips as well and as needed.

 

[blaxsun]

I imagine that any flow that could suck up 100% of parasites would also suck up any fish.

 

[GARRIGA]

I imagine that any flow that could suck up 100% of parasites would also suck up any fish.

Don’t know about that. 1000 gph pumps don’t seem to slam fish against glass walls. Plus UV work on a very reduced flow dependent on wattage to ensure contact time. Thinking flow rate at or above that. Can’t imagine a parasite out swimming 200 plus gallons per hour. That be one mighty strong parasite.

 

[J1a]

Don’t know about that. 1000 gph pumps don’t seem to slam fish against glass walls. Plus UV work on a very reduced flow dependent on wattage to ensure contact time. Thinking flow rate at or above that. Can’t imagine a parasite out swimming 200 plus gallons per hour. That be one mighty strong parasite.

The 200 plus gph will translate to very slow linear flow speed at the bottom of the tank. This is because the area into the plenum is very large.

Take for example, the flow of 200 gph goes thru a 1" pipe, the linear flow speed is about 16 inch/s. However at the bottom of the (for example, 2ft*1ft) tank, the linear flowrate is merely 0.044 inch/s (assuming the flow is even).

This is not a strong flow at all.

 

[GARRIGA]

The 200 plus gph will translate to very slow linear flow speed at the bottom of the tank. This is because the area into the plenum is very large.

Take for example, the flow of 200 gph goes thru a 1" pipe, the linear flow speed is about 16 inch/s. However at the bottom of the (for example, 2ft*1ft) tank, the linear flowrate is merely 0.044 inch/s (assuming the flow is even).

This is not a strong flow at all.

Understood. Point of the 200 was for illustration purposes as to there being a point at which a virus can't resist the pull. Why UV sizing would be based on flow required. There are large enough commercial UV for any flow required that a small container would encounter.

The main focus on whether passing all water through this micron filtration and UV would then eliminate the need to transfer inhabitants to another tank. Plus since filtration is being provided then tank doesn't need to be the standard 10 and could be considerably smaller. LFS often keep specimens in small cubes. This being temporary might suffice since duration might be as short as the days required for the infected fish to shed it's infection since reinfection is made impossible.

Alternative I've considered is completely removing UV from the equation. Assuming 0.5 micron filtration is sufficient enough to trap all free swimmers. I'm not sure on last.

These cubes can all be added to the same filtration system and thereby separating specimens including inverts and corals since those could also be potential carriers and eliminate aggression between fish. Cube sides could be black to further reduce stress and only cubes with corals lit as needed.

All inhabitants would enter the system by first being dipped as appropriate to inhabitant in order to influence shedding the bacteria or general medication practices. Repeated dips as needed.

If this works then traditional QT can be shorten drastically, copper can be completely removed from the equation and medications can be left to dips thereby reducing stress to those not in need of it.

Would be something that can be employed by wholesalers, LFS and hobbyist. Reduce mortality in the industry thereby reducing the take from nature and likely keeping more in the hobby because having a tank crash is very stressful on not just the inhabitants but it's keepers.

Cubes can be sized to inhabitants and made modular by having larger cubes with removable dividers. Allowing the isolation of the smallest singular item to an entire colony or group of fish such as damsels or others being economical to QT in groups thereby being more efficient depending on scale of operation. Drain holes can be situated based on potential number of divders so each section has it's own drain yet when all dividers are removed there would just be multiple drains per cube.

As an alternative, remove the matrix from the bottom, make the bottom round thereby removing attachment points for the bacteria and then provide filtration post micron filtration. Not sure what flow would then be needed but it would make it harder for viruses to stay intact. Each potential divided section would have this rounded bottom. Similar to a brine shrimp container. If those guys can't resist the pull then virus should have the same issues.

Don't have all the answers and why I posted. Perhaps we can develop a scenario where the old standby process was improved.

Here's a photo of the canisters used in RO and many familiar with. They come in large enough sizes to handle greater flows than RO requires and have various sediment filters that along with carbon can scrub down to 0.5 micron. Might require splitting the flow from the cubes/containers to several filters as the lower micron filters may have a maximum flow that is below what is being pulled from all cubes/containers. Managing the required flow is not the concern. Ability to scrub all free swimming viruses on one pass being the goal. UltraFiltration attempts to do exactly that and what I'm considering for whole house filtration and to use for top off. Might as well consider that approach as an application for eliminating viruses without the use of copper or having to constantly transfer inhabitants or having a lengthy QT.

 

[GARRIGA]

Illustration of what I'm trying to accomplish.

 

[GARRIGA]

Better than I can explain it.

Ultrafiltration - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[J1a]

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I think I understand your intension. It would. Be great to be able to achieve good parasite removal without having to transfer fishes around. However, for filtration based methods, it's very difficult to ensure 100% removal of parasites 24/7.

There is a reefer (in a China forum) who uses ultrafiltration as the main/only filtration for his aquarium. Based on his experiment, the process cannot eliminate ich parasites. However, it is very effective in denitrification once the filter becomes mature.

 

[GARRIGA]

Thank you for the detailed explanation. I think I understand your intension. It would. Be great to be able to achieve good parasite removal without having to transfer fishes around. However, for filtration based methods, it's very difficult to ensure 100% removal of parasites 24/7.

There is a reefer (in a China forum) who uses ultrafiltration as the main/only filtration for his aquarium. Based on his experiment, the process cannot eliminate ich parasites. However, it is very effective in denitrification once the filter becomes mature.

Why has he failed at ich removal? Is it that the filter isn’t able to filter that size item or his setup prevents 100% filtration. My understanding being that ich/velvet free swimming stage larger than 0.5 microns. In my conceit there should be 100% filtration in a short enough duration to prevent re-infestation. Especially if biological done post micron sediments filtration.

 

[J1a]

Why has he failed at ich removal? Is it that the filter isn’t able to filter that size item or his setup prevents 100% filtration. My understanding being that ich/velvet free swimming stage larger than 0.5 microns. In my conceit there should be 100% filtration in a short enough duration to prevent re-infestation. Especially if biological done post micron sediments filtration.

It's mainly because we can't ensure all the ich parasite pass through the filter because of the turnover rate of the filter. The parasite counts were dramatically reduced, but not eliminated, just like how we expect a good size UV to behave.

In another word, not 100% of the aquarium water pass through the filter. Those water which didn't pass through, will not have been treated.

 

[GARRIGA]

It's mainly because we can't ensure all the ich parasite pass through the filter because of the turnover rate of the filter. The parasite counts were dramatically reduced, but not eliminated, just like how we expect a good size UV to behave.

In another word, not 100% of the aquarium water pass through the filter. Those water which didn't pass through, will not have been treated.

What of my comments on the smaller compartments with rounded bottoms. Eliminating UV from the equation, the flow can be maximized to ensure all parasites are pulled. Only item in the container being the fish because having dark sides it likely will feel secure enough plus it won’t be in there beyond the time it takes for parasites to fall off plus some cushion to ensure total volume turnover plus safety margin. Which can be encouraged with freshwater dip prior to initial placement. I believe 9x volume per hour almost ensures 100% turnover and you have 7 days plus to remove the free swimmers.

Assume a compartment consisting of one gallon with flow set to 20 gallons that should remove everything not including QT specimen. Not sure at what point the flow in such a small confined area would be problematic but I’ve had no issue running 300 gph power heads in a 20 gallon Brute. I’m confident we can manage flow to maintain adequate turnover for parasite removal yet comfortable for its inhabitant.

Imagine QT lasting 14 days or less without copper or most other medications. No hassle of transferring and reduced stress overall. Biggest inconvenience being dips which I’ve never found to be an issue. Freshwater by itself for 5 minutes does wonders with many internal parasites and little long term stress. Going to try hydrogen peroxide bath as well. That’s something I’ve not done but sounds promising and based on the hybrid TTM seems to be a good cocktail for most ailments we face at least with fish.

I’m still trying to locate the components and then I’ll find a LFS willing to sacrifice a sick fish and see how that goes. Best test subject being powder blue. Save that and I’m confident most anything else will pass. Goal being to reduce number of parasites and allow fish to build immunity and heel assuming it was infected. Not that I’d purposely infect a fish. Especially since finding one already there not that difficult, unfortunately.

 

[J1a]

What of my comments on the smaller compartments with rounded bottoms. Eliminating UV from the equation, the flow can be maximized to ensure all parasites are pulled. Only item in the container being the fish because having dark sides it likely will feel secure enough plus it won’t be in there beyond the time it takes for parasites to fall off plus some cushion to ensure total volume turnover plus safety margin. Which can be encouraged with freshwater dip prior to initial placement. I believe 9x volume per hour almost ensures 100% turnover and you have 7 days plus to remove the free swimmers.

Assume a compartment consisting of one gallon with flow set to 20 gallons that should remove everything not including QT specimen. Not sure at what point the flow in such a small confined area would be problematic but I’ve had no issue running 300 gph power heads in a 20 gallon Brute. I’m confident we can manage flow to maintain adequate turnover for parasite removal yet comfortable for its inhabitant.

Imagine QT lasting 14 days or less without copper or most other medications. No hassle of transferring and reduced stress overall. Biggest inconvenience being dips which I’ve never found to be an issue. Freshwater by itself for 5 minutes does wonders with many internal parasites and little long term stress. Going to try hydrogen peroxide bath as well. That’s something I’ve not done but sounds promising and based on the hybrid TTM seems to be a good cocktail for most ailments we face at least with fish.

I’m still trying to locate the components and then I’ll find a LFS willing to sacrifice a sick fish and see how that goes. Best test subject being powder blue. Save that and I’m confident most anything else will pass. Goal being to reduce number of parasites and allow fish to build immunity and heel assuming it was infected. Not that I’d purposely infect a fish. Especially since finding one already there not that difficult, unfortunately.

Look forward to your experiment. I think when you have a rounded /funneled bottom, it's going to be more likely to work because cysts (before they hatch) will naturally sink anyway.

 

[GARRIGA]

Look forward to your experiment. I think when you have a rounded /funneled bottom, it's going to be more likely to work because cysts (before they hatch) will naturally sink anyway.

That won’t be for this first pass. Most likely just using my trusty 20g white Brute set to five gallons with pump pushing water through those whole home filters in combination reducing sediment filters and carbon then biological returning to bucket. I have a dark room to experiment in that should keep the fish less stressed and it stays around 82 which helps accelerate the parasites dropping off. Will employ two hydrogen peroxide baths with first at introduction. After 14 days I’ll also place a black Molly to test any residual free swimmers. Fingers crossed.

 

[dmsc2fs]

I think something like a conical tank would be the best possible attempt. A pump would circulate the water and it could be pulled out the bottom at low flow into a uv and sieve’s. Not sure how you could verify it works?

https://www.ntotank.com/15gallon-acerotomold-white-inductor-cone-bottom-tank-x8504006

 

[GARRIGA]

I think something like a conical tank would be the best possible attempt. A pump would circulate the water and it could be pulled out the bottom at low flow into a uv and sieve’s. Not sure how you could verify it works?

https://www.ntotank.com/15gallon-acerotomold-white-inductor-cone-bottom-tank-x8504006

That’s actually perfect. Can use gravity to feed the filters then place pump post and send it through a UV, if needed. Thanks

 

[GARRIGA]

BTW, I’m thinking that ich and velvet might fluoresce under a black light. I have a powerful 365 nm light that I use to spot pods, illuminates green algae as red, coralline is a deep purple, dust is white and anything white glows. Not sure how velvet would appear as I’ve never had that but guessing white spot anything should be clear as day.

 

[Jay Hemdal Verified Community Expert]

If a container could be 100% filtered through a 0.5 micron filter then the effluent fed through an adequate UV filter could that replace the TTM? For example, if that container had a plenum at the bottom covered by matrix yet the bottom of the container was drilled for ensuring 100% of the water passed through several particulate filters (downsizing from 100 micron to 0.5 micron) then that UV before returning to the tank and flow was fast enough that any free swimming stage would be unable to resist the pull then wouldn't this effectively replace the TTM? Since TTM is used to separate host from parasite then if parasite can be removed before ability to infest host the problem should be solved. Thoughts?

Purpose of the matrix is to provide biological filtration for the duration normally required with TTM. Fish can be pulled and treated with hydrogen peroxide or other dips as well and as needed.

Cool idea. I’ve tried using micro pore filters and I had trouble with them clogging to fast. A .5 micron would probably need a 5 micron prefilter.
Jay

 

[GARRIGA]

Cool idea. I’ve tried using micro pore filters and I had trouble with them clogging to fast. A .5 micron would probably need a 5 micron prefilter.
Jay

Starting with 100 micron and reducing from there. Expect often changing but beats cleaning tanks.

 

[DaddyFish]

Where would denitrification take place in the system?

I'd think filtration steps would need to use commonly available filter media to be practical.
So 100, 50, 10, 1, 0.5 or similar?

What about using a blacked-out/reflective, conical false bottom with slits, similar to the classic guppy breeder traps?
I'm not sure about the UV blocking properties of black acrylic, but making the false bottom with an integrated UV into the lower space would certainly go a long way towards killing the parasites before they have a chance to make it past a filter media.

 

[GARRIGA]

Where would denitrification take place in the system?

I'd think filtration steps would need to use commonly available filter media to be practical.
So 100, 50, 10, 1, 0.5 or similar?

What about using a blacked-out/reflective, conical false bottom with slits, similar to the classic guppy breeder traps?
I'm not sure about the UV blocking properties of black acrylic, but making the false bottom with an integrated UV into the lower space would certainly go a long way towards killing the parasites before they have a chance to make it past a filter media.

Consider the filtration as one separate unit handling all individual compartments. This separate system would handle the micron sediment separation along with biological and possibly denitrification. The latter dependent on flow being slow enough or carbon dosing. That however not a concern since goal is to shorten QT and WC post could resolve it.

Yes, there would be a reduction process from 100 micron down to 0.5. I noted that in one of my posts. Options are as you stated although some filters have dual layers for example allowing 100/50 in a single sleeve. Reducing the number of filter housings.

One solution would be to have biological first then sediment and carbon last. Biological can be organized to capture different size sediment by using different size pumice. For example, first the size of Pond Matrix and last the 1/4” size of Denitrate. Natural decomposition would reduce them further allowing the filters to last longer before clogging.

Not following on the blocking of UV. However, if UV still needed then that would be last before returning to compartments and sized based on flow. Although, assuming 0.5 micron is sufficient to filter out parasites then no longer needed and now flow can be as needed.

Blacking out of compartments just to separate fish from visually seeing each other and reducing stress. Stress I believe is the number one killer of all living things.

The guppy tank idea would work but goal here is to create a funnel where parasites would be efficiently drawn from to prevent reinfecting the inhabitants. As they shed they get literally cleansed.

This would apply to inverts and corals alike which can all be in one system since copper isn’t employed. Fact is no medication is used. Dips as needed would solve that including as a means to facilitate quicker shedding of the parasites. Why all would start with a dip before initial introduction.

I honestly can’t isolate where there’s a fault in the process. Most difficult part being the compartments. Making them where the effluent is maximized to draw the parasites out quickly before they can become a problem. Place lids on them and reduce evaporation yet allow dosing to keep parameters based on inhabitant load at the moment. Lids can be designed to block light to ensure SPS to softies can be placed under the same light source for simplicity. Similar to stops of diffused paper in photography.

Ultimately the goal is medication free process with shortest time possible. At least on paper seems possible.