QT observation

[mrukus]

I'm hopefully planning on never letting ick in my dt by qting everything wet for 6 weeks. I haven't incorporated any prophylactic treatments with these first two clowns. If they are healthy and eating well and not stressed, won't the ick just lie "dormat" with the fish fighting it off or will there definitely be signs of ick or other diseases throughout the QT period even if they are adjusting well to their new surroundings?

 

[rayn]

It can lie under their gills and never really present itself for us to see. The only true way to keep it out 100% is to treat regardless.

Good luck!

 

[Mike J.]

You've brought up a debate on whether to treat fish in quarantine or to just treat if there is a problem. There's people on both sides of that fence. There's a long list of reasons people have conflicting opinions. A lot of the fish that the end consumer get have already been treated. Some treatments diminish the fishes' life expectancy. The fish is already stressed out enough. If it's not broke don't fix it. On the other hand, several diseases or parasites are not readily seen or they could be managing with the disease. Then a fish in your DT might not be able to manage that disease.

To be absolutely safe I would let a fish that has no apparent problems live in the QT for several days and make sure it's eating well, then I would treat the fish twice over a couple weeks.

 

[Humblefish]

Here's my 2 cents on this issue:

1. Know yourself - Are you the very observant, attention to detail type who has lots of time to watch fish in QT? If so, then just passive observation will probably work for you. Because even if physical symptoms of a disease do not manifest, you'll still notice behavioral symptoms such as head twitching, scratching, flashing telling you something is wrong with this fish. Of course, hobbyists with experience also fair better with just observing in QT. On the other hand, if you are a person with a hectic schedule or just not overly observant... then I recommend prophylactic treatment for the two diseases which can "hide out" in the gills - ich & flukes.
2. Type of fish - IME; physical symptoms of a disease will usually manifest in a bare bottom, rockless QT. I don't know why - could be because parasites don't have natural "safe houses" (rocks/sand) to properly encyst upon, or maybe fish get "stressed" not being in their natural environment (no rocks/sand) and more apt to show symptoms. This seems to be especially true for fish with thin mucous coats, like tangs. However, fish with thick mucous layers - clownfish, anthias, wrasses, dragonets (to name only some) - are far less likely to show physical/visible signs of disease and IMO are best treated prophylactically.
3. Tank transfer method - This is an excellent way of treating for ich, in a chemical free environment. You also have the option of incorporating Prazipro (for flukes). See below for more info.

Tank Transfer Method: Treats Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans) only.

How To Treat - Tank transfer (TTM) is probably one of the most underused and underappreciated resources in our hobby. To properly execute TTM you need two tanks (or buckets), with dedicated equipment for each tank (not to be shared between the two). I personally use 2 of the 10 gallon tanks to do TTM, each with its own heater, thermometer, air stone, airline tubing and PVC elbows for hiding places. This is how TTM is implemented:

• Day 1 - Fish is placed in initial QT.
• Day 4 - Roughly 72 hours later transfer the fish to new tank. The time of day you do the transfer is unimportant, but never exceed 72 hours from the last transfer. The temperature and SG of the new tank should match the old one perfectly, so you can just catch & release (no acclimation). Transfer as little water as possible with the fish.
• Day 7 - Repeat.
• Day 10 - Repeat.
• Day 13 - Repeat and done (fish should now be ich free).

After transferring, immediately sanitize the “old tank” and all equipment using bleach or vinegar. Rinse well. Let air dry thoroughly before next use. The air drying is the sterilization process when using vinegar, or detoxification process when using bleach.

Simply put, this process works because you are literally outrunning the parasite’s known life cycle. If a fish is infected with ich, trophonts will leave the fish at some point during the TTM process, and the encysted stage doesn’t have enough time to release theronts (i.e. free swimmers that re-infect the fish) before the fish exits the tank. Ammonia isn’t much of a concern with TTM, because every 3 days the fish is placed in a new tank with new water; or you always have the option of using ammonia reducers, such as Amquel or Prime, in conjunction with TTM since there is no risk of negative interaction because no medications are present. However, you do have the option of dosing Prazipro (if you need to deworm) at the onset of “Day 4” and “Day 10”; transfers 2 & 4 respectively. Just remember if you do this that you can’t use any ammonia reducers while Prazi is present in the water.

One of the cons to tank transfer is the amount/cost of saltwater needed to do it. For example, using my 2-10 gallons I go through 50 gallons of saltwater before the TTM process is complete. However, a thrifty hobbyist can use water stored from a recent display tank water change to implement TTM. Obviously, this only works if you are 100% confident that your display tank is disease free and don’t siphon anything off the bottom. ;-) The other problem with TTM is netting the fish every 3 days. That concern can be somewhat alleviated by using a plastic colander in lieu of a net to catch the fish (square ones work better than round ones):

Pros - Chemical free solution to ich, highly effective when performed properly, can be combined with deworming via Prazipro.

Cons/Side Effects - Cost (if using all new saltwater), time/effort expended, probably somewhat stressful on the fish being caught every 3 days.

 

[mrukus]

Didn't mean to stumble upon a polarizing debate! I have spent hours watching the clowns but I am pretty busy usually so developing a prophylactic process to follow I think would be best. I've comeuppance with the following. What do you guys think.
Methylene blue fwd followed by 1 week QT until eating
Week 2: prazipro treatment
Week 3-6 cupraminne treatment.
Week 7- go to dt.

I think everything should be covered with this and I'll be able to have an ick and disease free DT.

Question for those that do treat prophylacticaly, are there any redundancies? Would this be to harsh for fish?

 

[Humblefish]

A few critiques: :wink:

• Methylene Blue is only useful to treat ammonia burn, cuts, injuries. Unless you see physical evidence of these, I would skip Methylene Blue. I'm just not a big fan of exposing fish to chemicals needlessly - as long term health effects have rarely been studied.
• When using Prazipro; dose once, wait 5-7 days, do a 20-25% water change and then repeat dosage. The reason for the second dose is to eradicate the “next generation†of worms before they can lay eggs of their own. Because while Prazi does kill worms, it doesn’t eliminate any eggs they might leave behind.
• Standard copper (Cupramine) treatment lasts one full month. After the 1 month is up, I advocate moving the fish directly out of copper and into the DT for this reason: In one study (Colorni and Burgess 1997), it took 72 days for all the theronts to be released from a group of tomonts. If you were unlucky enough to encounter this same strain of ich, dropping the copper below therapeutic levels after just one month would expose your fish to possible reinfection. However, since copper targets the “free swimming†or theront stage, in theory your fish should still be protected from this rare strain of ich because the "shield" is never lowered. Hopefully that makes sense. :bigsmile:

 

[ca1ore]

At the end of the day, it really depends on the level of risk you are willing to bear. I QT almost all fish 12 weeks, yet ich snuck into my tank. So, how? One of three ways, it was either already there when I bough the tank originally off craigslist, though none of the fish ever exhibited symptoms; it hitch-hiked in on an asymptomatic new fish, or it came in on an un-QT'd Leopard wrasse (I suppose it's also possible it came in on an invert). In all cases there were no symptoms. Consequently, I'm of the opinion that just observing does not get you anywhere close to 100% prevention. Prophylactically treating will get you a whole lot closer, though also not 100%, and you may lose a few fish to the treatments. Which is better? My own position is that as I build a more significant fish population, the downside of not treating becomes more costly. It does depend on the fish, of course, but I am more inclined to treat in the absence of symptoms now than I used to be.

 

[mrukus]

Thanks for the tips. I'll ditch the methylene blue. Prazipro is supposed to be really easy on fish right? So first two weeks on prazipro and the following 4 on copper should take car of 99% of disease.

I was sure to buy all new equipment and used base rock and dry sand. From everything I read it would be horrible yo deal with a diseas outbreak and since I plan on qting EVERYTHING it should be a problem.

ca1ore-why didn't you QT your wrasse? Or did you come up with your regiment after the outbreak?

 

[rayn]

I was sure to buy all new equipment and used base rock and dry sand. From everything I read it would be horrible yo deal with a diseas outbreak and since I plan on qting EVERYTHING it should be a problem.

Wait a minute here. Your QT is a bare bottom tank with NO rock or minimal rock, correct? If you use sand or rock it will soak up the medications and it becomes a pain trying to figure out correct dosing.

 

[ca1ore]

ca1ore-why didn't you QT your wrasse? Or did you come up with your regiment after the outbreak?

It was a calculated risk. Trio of leopards was sourced from DD, and they are inherently resistant to skin parasites, so I decided to put them straight into my display refugium in order to ensure they had access to pods. I do not believe they were the source of ich in my tank, though as it turns out one of them died as a result of an internal parasite so my approach was not without its flaws. Still have the other two though

Don't think it recommend to others what I did, and I'm not sure I'd do it again.

 

[ca1ore]

ca1ore-why didn't you QT your wrasse? Or did you come up with your regiment after the outbreak?

It was a calculated risk. Trio of leopards was sourced from DD, and they are inherently resistant to skin parasites, so I decided to put them straight into my display refugium in order to ensure they had access to pods. I do not believe they were the source of ich in my tank, though as it turns out one of them died as a result of an internal parasite so my approach was not without its flaws. Still have the other two though

Don't think it recommend to others what I did, and I'm not sure I'd do it again.

 

[Humblefish]

Thanks for the tips. I'll ditch the methylene blue. Prazipro is supposed to be really easy on fish right? So first two weeks on prazipro and the following 4 on copper should take car of 99% of disease.

Prazipro can cause mild appetite suppression - usually only lasts a day or two though. Wrasses seem especially sensitive to prazi, so take care not to overdose with them.

Your QT protocol looks solid and should work. Make sure to test your copper level often. If it drops below therapeutic (<0.35mg/L for Cupramine) then all bets are off and the 30 day treatment clock must restart.

Some advocate an "observation period" after all medications are complete, to be sure the fish is disease-free. I certainly can see the wisdom in doing that. However, I advocate moving the fish to a different holding tank for this period just in case ich tomonts are still present in the treatment tank (see comments above about the 72 day rule.)

 

[mrukus]

thanks guys. Sorry about the confusion. I meant that my dt was with all new equipment, dry sand and rock. The qt has some rock and the hospital tank has nothing but foam filter heater and pvc. The rock will probably come out of the qt before I start dosing meds though. they were extra Left over from aquascaping the dt

 

[Trailermann]

Mike J, what do you mean, "treat two times"?

 

[Mike J.]

This is what I was referring to: From Humblefish post - •When using Prazipro; dose once, wait 5-7 days, do a 20-25% water change and then repeat dosage. The reason for the second dose is to eradicate the “next generation” of worms before they can lay eggs of their own. Because while Prazi does kill worms, it doesn’t eliminate any eggs they might leave behind.

 

[mrukus]

Humble, I've been following your new qt protocol on the la reef forum and tried to join and post on it. My question was could this theoretically be cut down to 14 days? 4 days to ramp up to therapeutic levels of copper then take the fish out and into a guaranteed ick fee qt? I think I may just give it a try and document it like you did. I know what the guaranteed method is but I think some experimentation with documentation is the only way to improve anything!

 

[mrukus]

I meant to keep the fish at therapeutic levels for 10 days also dosing prazi twice during the process too.

 

[fishroomlady]

I know it's what you need to do to qt properly but it just sounds so stressful to the fish - not weighing in on debate just an observation

 

[Humblefish]

@mrukus Once therapeutic levels are achieved, the 10 day countdown can begin. The minimum therapeutic level for Cupramine is 0.35mg/L; for Coppersafe it's 1.5mg/L. Obviously with copper you want to ramp it up slowly to watch for signs of copper intolerance. You also must test daily, to ensure the Cu level never drops below therapeutic, and the fish would have to go straight from copper water to another QT or straight into the DT. You never want to drop your "shield" by lowering the Cu concentration.

There are known interaction issues using Prazipro in conjunction with both copper & CP. Both reduce the bioavailability of praziquantel, which reduces Prazipro's overall effectiveness. I also one time experienced a bacterial bloom when combining Prazipro & CP, and the result was severe oxygen depletion which killed a Copperband Butterflyfish. I've had no such dangerous interaction issues mixing Prazipro with copper. I think with CP it was the oxybispropanol (found in Prazipro) which interacted with the chloroquine and caused the bacteria bloom. I'm trying to figure out if I can just add straight powder praziquantel (with no ethyl alcohol) to the QT and then safely combine that with CP. You can read more about that here: https://www.reef2reef.com/forums/fish-disease-treatment-diagnosis/195229-api-general-cure.html

BTW, I just double checked on LARC and you should have full positing rights there. Once I am sure my new QT protocol theory is correct, I will post a thread here on R2R. But for now I am keeping it local, as I do not wish to mislead people just in case my theory proves to be incorrect.

 

[mrukus]

Thanks for the input. I'm also following along with the app general cure thread too. I am lucky and my gf works for a vet so I think I'll be able to get access to CP, but I was thinking about the cost vs availability and I like being able to make sure the fish is eating, those 4 days of slowly ramping up the cu levels I think will allow for that. If I could use the app general cure at the same time it might be better. Having a 2 week qt period just seems nice Vs 6.