QT tank won't cycle

[pseudorand]

I have 3 fish in QT. Today I noticed they weren't out. One did come out to eat a few hours ago, but just now I noticed him swimming upside down. So I did a water test.

Ammonia: 0-0.25ppm - It's not yellow (0), but not quite the green-yellow of 0.25 (first notch)
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 5ppm
Salinity: 1.025
Temp: 79.0F
(API test kit)

The ammonia is the most obvious culprit, so I've added Ammo Lock and I'll do a water change as soon as my water gets to temp. But this has been a persistent problem in this tank, so I'm pretty sure I'm giving up on even trying to QT anything ever again. QT is fish murder.

Tank history:

• 38 gallon, HOB filter + airstone.
• The tank was originally fish QT and treated with chealated copper.
• A few months ago I set it up fresh. Washed thoroughly, fresh salt mix, new media from DT. I QT'd corals, snails and crabs for 45 days. I lost most of the snails and crabs, which I now know is probably because you can't get rid of copper. The corals did great though, and are now in my DT.
• 1 week after removing corals I added the current fish (Tomini tang, foxface, bicolor blenny). 50% water change, but no other tank changes.
• Ammonia spiked -- too many fish, too much food. I did water tests daily for a while, added more filter media from DT and did water changes at any sign of ammonia and it seemed to stabilize. Fish were out and about.
• I did a water test 3 days ago. Ammonia may not have been zero (it's hard to tell), but fish were out and eating. 2 days ago I did another 30% water change just in case.

Then today happened. Ammonia is the only thing I can think to blame. The only things I add are:

• Food, defrosted in water from my DT (so I can add the extra to the DT)
• RO/DI to top off
• Fresh salt mix for water changes. Same mixing bucket as my DT.

The one difference about the water change was that I used new salt. I mistakenly ordered the Red Sea Coral Pro instead of the regular Red Sea, but I can't imagine that makes a difference. Maybe I got a bad batch, but that seems unlikely from a reputable company.

The reason I think it could be something other than ammonia is that the current fish have been in the tank for 3 weeks now, and the tank was well seeded with bacteria from my DT. I probably had plenty of bacteria die-off when the tank was fallow for a week, but 3 weeks later it should be cycled, should it not? Yet I'm seeing non-zero ammonia. Nitrates register, but they're not increasing. Either the tank isn't cycled and it's ammonia, or the tank is cycled, input isn't enough to bump nitrates much, and something else is killing my fish.

How does everyone else set up and cycle QT tanks? Am I wrong to expect it to be cycled? What else could I possibly check for?

 

[Woozycactus]

have you tried dosing ammonia without any live stock in and seeing if it all goes to nitrate?

 

[pseudorand]

My fish aren't quite dead yet, but at this rate I'll be able to try that tomorrow.

But how would I interpret results? If I get lots of nitrate quickly, then it must have been something else that killed my fish.

But what if I don't? Was it because I added too much ammonia? If I added more ammonia than the fish were producing, I might not get lots of nitrate, but it could still be something else that killed the fish. Or maybe I wouldn't see nitrates because I added too little ammonia and the fish were producing more than that?

I forgot to mention that I got nitrite the first week I added fish, which tells me I have bacteria, but not the right amounts of all the right types. Since that initial test, nitrites have always registered 0 though, so short of something killing all my bacteria and ammonia building up, I think no nitrite is a vote for a cycled tank.

 

[lion king]

What kind of media from dt are you using, and how much.You are talking about matrix, rubble, sponge, etc. Right. Most times the amount of media pulled from dt sumps are not carrying enough bacteria to fully filter the biological load people put in their qt tanks. Most times a jumpstart of bacteria like biospira is also needed to boost the viability of the media. Depending on the fish load there needs to enough media, and most times a few pieces of rubble or a small sponge is not enough.

 

[pseudorand]

A few dozens ceramic disks and a ceramic bar. The disks have been in there for 45 days before the first while I QT'd my frags. I added the ceramic bar when I first had the ammonia issues about two weeks ago. I also have a carbon bag and biowheel. That's about as much as my HOB can hold.

 

[pseudorand]

A few dozens ceramic disks and a ceramic bar. The disks have been in there for 45 days before the first while I QT'd my frags. I added the ceramic bar when I first had the ammonia issues about two weeks ago. I also have a carbon bag and biowheel. That's about as much as my HOB can hold.

I forgot that I had also added two fairly large pieces of dry rock that sat in my DT sump for two weeks while I was quarantineing the frags in prep for the fish QT to avoid this very problem. There isn't much flow on them in the QT like there would be in the DT or sump though.

 

[brandon429]

Your issues was easy to decode in the first paragraph.

there is no problem here, that reading persists for thousands of fine-running reefs, google it


these type of readings seem to imply that ammonia noncontrol has no real consequence to the life, and thats not the case

the day you have real .25, lose all fish in one hour. misread.

qt tanks are notorious for having too little surface area + water presentation for filtration. even before seeing pics of yours, your fish living past 24 hours tell us you for sure have it controlled.

no matter how you slice it, this qt is fully cycled. this post is now added to our unstuck cycle thread, even before pics. its impossible for you not to be cycled based on what you've written

fish behavior, easy to explain for qt/non native environment we're always trying to contextualize the .25 but check search returns, millions.

and all reefs from them, fine. all of them. none in actual distress. sells millions of dollars of bottle bac this way, though attachment surfaces are already maxed out in any qt system before re-adding more bac (they need more surface area, not bacteria)

surface area is what we lack in qt systems, but you've got that covered.

amquel causes misreads on that particular water column going forward, until its changed out. you dont need to test for ammonia here if you've already had fish in a few days plus feeding them, water clarity alone will shift first if ammonia overload ever happens I dont think api can help you detect a small change. use api to look for motion not stagnancy

if it moves to dark green tomorrow then thats legit

but any hovering even above zero means ammonia is under control, not out of control, .25 is that test's favorite reading

but no seneye user in history has ever reported tenths ppm ammonia sustained, on a known-working meter where slides are handled properly.

Today's top nh3 meters have shown api to be wrong in literally every .25 ever posted.
*not saying your QT doesnt have a sooner breakpoint than someones DT with massive sand and rock surface area, it does.

but you can't have consequence/doom-free nh3 noncontrol, so rule out your cycle based on this current bioload.

if you doubled fish, and get a hard green motion, = concern

 

[pseudorand]

Your issues was easy to decode in the first paragraph.

there is no problem here, that reading persists for thousands of fine-running reefs, google it


these type of readings seem to imply that ammonia noncontrol has no real consequence to the life, and thats not the case

the day you have real .25, lose all fish in one hour. misread.

qt tanks are notorious for having too little surface area + water presentation for filtration. even before seeing pics of yours, your fish living past 24 hours tell us you for sure have it controlled.

no matter how you slice it, this qt is fully cycled. this post is now added to our unstuck cycle thread, even before pics. its impossible for you not to be cycled based on what you've written

fish behavior, easy to explain for qt/non native environment we're always trying to contextualize the .25 but check search returns, millions.

and all reefs from them, fine. all of them. none in actual distress. sells millions of dollars of bottle bac this way, though its attachment surfaces are already maxed out in any qt system before re-adding more bac.

surface area is what we lack in qt systems, but you've got that covered.

amquel causes misreads on that particular water column going forward, until its changed out. you dont need to test for ammonia here if you've already had fish in a few days plus feeding them, water clarity alone will shift first if ammonia overload ever happens I dont think api can help you detect a small change. use api to look for motion not stagnancy

if it moves to dark green tomorrow then thats legit

but any hovering even above zero means ammonia is under control, not out of it.

I don't follow. Do you mean my tank is "fully cycled" in that is has as much of all types of nitrifying bacteria the filter media can hold, but my fish are dieing because I have insufficient surface area for fish load? My HOB is a penguin biowheel 200, rated for 50g by the manufacturer. In addition to the biowheel and carbon cartridge, I have ceramic media in the chamber.

The tomini tang did die last night. The foxface and bicolor blenny are still alive, bit in unknown condition. I'm still planning to take a sledgehammer to the QT as soon as they die so I won't be tempted to try to QT again.

 

[Cell]

What Brandon is saying is you would not have live fish if you had a lethal level of ammonia. Once you hit a lethal level of ammonia, all your fish die.

 

[pseudorand]

So what's the alternative explanation for why my fish are dieing?

I saw all the fish I bought in the LFS for multiple weeks before buying them. They ate at the store and again when I first put them in my QT.

I do have some ammonia. I can do a test on my DT and QT, and the QT is clearly non-zero. Not much, but not zero. And it's not like 0.09ppm is no problem but 0.10ppm is instantly lethal. I have to imagine that exposure to small levels over time will slowly kill fish and that some will succumb sooner. That's what's happening in my tank.

The question is why, after 2+ months wet and 3 weeks under heavy bioload, I still have ammonia problems.

 

[brandon429]

lets see a full tank pic

ammonia noncontrol always has clouding water, fish at the top not the bottom (aerotaxis to higher 02/gill burns) and about three other signs.

they could be dying for the reasons we qt, or the shock of it. lack of nh3 control isn't selective, animals and systems that lack nh3 control can't make it past a day or two, the lead up signs happen before all the fish die.


it'd be different if this was seneye. and if your fish were taxing correctly we'd then call the seneye wrong lol, and have rarely / logged on file.

I think its fair to at least be able to tie in a whole picture shot w the readings. and if that ammonia turned darker overnite I would be concerned, but you're reporting the classic hold which triggers api skepticism legitimately.

these cases are very easy to call for display tanks, overdone 10x with surface area.

qt tanks really do risk noncontrol with feeding spikes or dead fish not caught while we're at work etc, pics should show things mid-crash or working well, if these fish eat I dont think they're burned.

 

[brandon429]

also, can we see your surface area setup

it will be easy to relate that to hundreds of known qt arrangements and what loading they carry easily.

for sure some treatments and dosers can kill off filter beds in qt setups, i expect the api to turn green quickly when that occurs, plus some visual doom

 

[Freelamp944]

I believe I read in another post that copper and ammonia binding products can be a toxic combination. I'm not sure about the science behind it and what specific products are an issue, but if you think there might still be copper in the system it could be an issue. I'm sure someone with more experience can give you a better explanation.

 

[Dieing for a Drink]

try dr tims one and only

 

[pseudorand]

 

[brandon429]

hey that sys appears to have been running a good while? has the typical reef growths on the walls etc is that right

nice dilution too, not a tiny system all crammed in.

 

[pseudorand]

I still don't by mystery disease rather than ammonia. Why is my bacteria being lazy!

 

[Jedi Knghit]

I have no experience with API test kits, but there are a number of posts on the forum stating they are inaccurate.

 

[pseudorand]

I think that's mostly nitrate. If you don't shake bottle 2 and the test tube for a full minute, it under reports. I suspect other brands so the same, but way more new reefers who don't read the instructions carefully use API. By the time people switch brands, they've figured out how important reading the instructions is.

 

[pseudorand]

Well, this morning the foxface has ich. Luckily I had him in an acclimation box, so I could catch him and dump him back in QT without taking my DT apart. Hopefully the ich lifecycle means they didn't detach and infect my DT.

I still think the primary problem in QT is ammonia because of the heavy breathing and API test. I've started to ramp up CU in QT, but I don't think it's realistic to both keep up water changes in QT to deal with ammonia and maintain proper Cu levels, so I expect he's doomed.

If he does live, I'll name him Harry Potter: the fish who lived. I suppose that makes me Voldemort.