Qualms with the triton system

[jduong916]

To start off, I think the triton system is great. Make the biggest fuge that can process N and P to the max. That is great. No qualms there. The triton systems relies on macro algae to take care of all the nutrients on its own. Deplete the system of essential trace elements. Then it requires you to test and add what you need. Triton has proven that a big fuge with various macro algae can sustain a low nutrient system. Grrreatttt!

Why not implement this system? Lets make a big fuge to export nutrients, but instead of testing and adding trace elements, we all just keep up with water changes (10% a week or a little less) and use this to add the trace elements. Instead of being forced to buy trace elements and test every few months. This is actually the same system a lot of successful reefers use. Have a huge sump, light it properly, have algae diversity, but instead of testing and adding trace elements just do a simple water change.

The huge fuge is a great idea. It's self limiting, you dont have to worry about over depletion of nutrients, just let the algae do its thing. Keep this and add a water chage. Stop worrying about trace elements, bacteria and all that other stuff that causes tanks to crash in the long run and you should be successful. There are many ways to skin a cat, but a water change never hurt nobody. My 2 cents.

 

[Dennis Cartier]

I agree. There is no shortage of "systems" in this hobby that seem to have a product (to sell you) for everything. I expect that the various systems help new reefers find success, just by following the program, but at great cost.

After watching the BRS video comparing fuge lights, it highlighted that using a capable light makes all the world of difference, and it should be possible to use a fuge to balance a DT when lit properly and with sufficient spectrum. I think new fugue lights like the Kessil H380 (and the equivalent no name hydroponic LEDs) bring a whole new element to making fuges a capable partner to a properly lit DT.

As I wait for my Triton test to be ran so I can see the results, I can't help but wonder how knowing what my water parameters were several weeks before, really is? Not to mention the cost of each test. I will probably continue to do Triton tests quarterly or so, but I can't ever see myself ever dosing based on a system that has such long latencies in it.

Dennis

 

[teller]

What do you mean stop adding trace elements?
Most people add trace elements when dosing part 2/part 3, even CaRx add trace elements.
Most people I know do water changes and still have refugium with macro algae and also use a little GFO.
Nothing new in here.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

The huge fuge is a great idea. It's self limiting, you dont have to worry about over depletion of nutrients, just let the algae do its thing. Keep this and add a water chage. Stop worrying about trace elements, bacteria and all that other stuff that causes tanks to crash in the long run and you should be successful. There are many ways to skin a cat, but a water change never hurt nobody. My 2 cents.

The potential main drawback is that water changes do not necessarily maintain trace elements. It might be "enough", but it is apparently not adequate for some ions.

 

[spiraling]

To start off, I think the triton system is great. Make the biggest fuge that can process N and P to the max. That is great. No qualms there. The triton systems relies on macro algae to take care of all the nutrients on its own. Deplete the system of essential trace elements. Then it requires you to test and add what you need. Triton has proven that a big fuge with various macro algae can sustain a low nutrient system. Grrreatttt!

Why not implement this system? Lets make a big fuge to export nutrients, but instead of testing and adding trace elements, we all just keep up with water changes (10% a week or a little less) and use this to add the trace elements. Instead of being forced to buy trace elements and test every few months. This is actually the same system a lot of successful reefers use. Have a huge sump, light it properly, have algae diversity, but instead of testing and adding trace elements just do a simple water change.

The huge fuge is a great idea. It's self limiting, you don't have to worry about over depletion of nutrients, just let the algae do its thing. Keep this and add a water change. Stop worrying about trace elements, bacteria and all that other stuff that causes tanks to crash in the long run and you should be successful. There are many ways to skin a cat, but a water change never hurt nobody. My 2 cents.

First off, I don't run triton, but I like the theory behind it and several companies (zeovit, red sea) also have product lines to add elements in conjunction with water changes. and of course 2 part.

The first thing is the ICP testing, which can alert you if you have levels that are too low or too high. How you remediate this is up to you. A 100% water change will theoretically take care of it.

The second is that on larger systems with high uptake it becomes more economical to add what you need rather than buy enough salt and water to replace it. Not to mention your labor involved.

 

[sghera64]

The potential main drawback is that water changes do not necessarily maintain trace elements. It might be "enough", but it is apparently not adequate for some ions.

How important are trace elements to coral health?

I know some TrE's can color up corals but do we know that any TrE's that are essential?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

How important are trace elements to coral health?

I know some TrE's can color up corals but do we know that any TrE's that are essential?

They are absolutely critical to be obtained in some way. Corals must die without many of them.

That said, it is not apparent at all how much can come from foods that are consumed by the coral, since all foods also contain them.

That also does not necessarily mean that supplements are needed.

Many people report benefits from trace element supplements of various sorts. In my case, the few times I experimented with trace element mixtures I didn't detect any difference. Iron did make a difference, and so did silicate (not a trace element). I dosed both of those fairly regularly.

 

[sghera64]

They are absolutely critical to be obtained in some way. Corals must die without many of them.

That said, it is not apparent at all how much can come from foods that are consumed by the coral, since all foods also contain them.

That also does not necessarily mean that supplements are needed.

It sounds like TrE's are to corals what hormones are to people (weak, I know, but it works in my mind).


I figure that much of what is in our bodies or coral tissue is a result of what is in our respective environments (that we consume). What remains in the organism is either benign, removed if our biology knows how to reject/remove it, or becomes 'useful'.

Since our captive systems can have huge deviance in the amount of trace elements in the water, it seems that corals can cope with that.

For me, its your last remark that may be the equalizer: We are feeding our fish/tanks sea-based organic matter that likely contains many of the elements needed by all sea life. Plus, if someone (like me) runs a CO2 reactor, its possible we are adding more TrE's.

I'm starting to get curious enough to ICP my tank water to see where things are after running the system for 16 years.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

It sounds like TrE's are to corals what hormones are to people (weak, I know, but it works in my mind).


I figure that much of what is in our bodies or coral tissue is a result of what is in our respective environments (that we consume). What remains in the organism is either benign, removed if our biology knows how to reject/remove it, or becomes 'useful'.

Since our captive systems can have huge deviance in the amount of trace elements in the water, it seems that corals can cope with that.

For me, its your last remark that may be the equalizer: We are feeding our fish/tanks sea-based organic matter that likely contains many of the elements needed by all sea life. Plus, if someone (like me) runs a CO2 reactor, its possible we are adding more TrE's.

I'm starting to get curious enough to ICP my tank water to see where things are after running the system for 16 years.

It can be instructive.

I discuss my results here:


My Triton Testing Results: By Randy Holmes-Farley
http://www.reefedition.com/my-triton-testing-results-by-randy-holmes-farley/

 

[bubbaque]

Is algae truly self regulating? Is it possible to drop nutrients too low with algae that you need to dose aminos? @Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[teller]

Is algae truly self regulating? Is it possible to drop nutrients too low with algae that you need to dose aminos? @Randy Holmes-Farley

Very good question.
In excess, could macro algae out compete corals for the nutrients and traces?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Is algae truly self regulating? Is it possible to drop nutrients too low with algae that you need to dose aminos? @Randy Holmes-Farley

By definition, too low means too low for something.

Certainly, enough algae in a perfect setting with all the trace elements and light it needs will drop the nitrate and/or phosphate levels to a certain point, and then greatly slow in uptake because one of them becomes a limiting factor to growth. It can't go too much lower because that particular species of algae will have a harder and harder time taking up the needed N and P.

At that low point, some other organisms (e.g., corals) may already have lost out in the competition for nutrients and are stunted in growth, if not starving. Others will still be finding plenty of N and P. Some might get N and P from organic matter they consume (foods) so may readily win, while others do not.

How well this works out in an aquarium depends on many factors, most especially the species involved.

So yes, it is self regulating in a certain sense, but isn't necessarily a perfect solution for all organisms we keep.

 

[ryboy707]

Aren't silicates bad?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Aren't silicates bad?

Only if you have a problem with diatoms. Otherwise, they are needed by many organisms, such as many sponges.

Feature Article: Silica In Reef Aquariums ? Advanced Aquarist | Aquarist Magazine and Blog
http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/feature.htm

 

[jduong916]

Is icp teating even reliable? I think i remember someone posting results of ICP testing and it being way off, i think the guy did a big test on a bunch of salt brands.

Anywho, is a water change really that expensive. I would think that the core triton dosing elements and the testing would be more expensive. Definitely leas labor though.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Is icp teating even reliable? I think i remember someone posting results of ICP testing and it being way off, i think the guy did a big test on a bunch of salt brands.

Anywho, is a water change really that expensive. I would think that the core triton dosing elements and the testing would be more expensive. Definitely leas labor though.

I think the reliability interpretation depends on what you expect from it. Expect perfection, it won't cut it. Expect useful results and I think it does.

Richard Ross showed it was pretty good for the major and minor constituents and had some errors associated with some trace elements:

http://packedhead.net/2015/triton-l...fied-artificial-saltwater-standard/#more-3309

 

[paphater]

Just to be fair it's not triton cost vs water change cost, it's triton cost vs water change + dosing + ro filters cost.

 

[jduong916]

Just to be fair it's not triton cost vs water change cost, it's triton cost vs water change + dosing + ro filters cost.

Agreed.

 

[Larry L]

I figure that much of what is in our bodies or coral tissue is a result of what is in our respective environments (that we consume). What remains in the organism is either benign, removed if our biology knows how to reject/remove it, or becomes 'useful'.

Or, like lead, builds up to increasingly toxic levels.

 

[Big E]

Very good question.
In excess, could macro algae out compete corals for the nutrients and traces?

Algae certainly sucks up a lot of trace elements that could otherwise benefit corals. There have been plenty of dry weight tests that show what algae consume. There are also plenty of people that have to dose iron, nitrates, ect to keep their algae filters going.

Triton in this respect is self-fulfilling in that you may show some depletion rates per their tests as the algae is sucking up essential elements. With no water changes, the setup dictates you having to buy and dose elements....just send them another $50 and they'll tell you what to do. They've essentially taken a standard nutrient tool and turned it into a money making "method"

I don't use algae filters as I don't want competition for my acropora systems and there are many other options that don't directly compete with the corals for trace elements and nutrients.