Quarantine Dilemma

[starypotter]

Hi everyone,
I recently had several new additions to QT pass from malnourishment within 24-48 hours of purchase. I didn't notice how thin they were at LFS. I still have a fish that I'm struggling to get to eat so it could put on weight since it's severely malnourished.

I had an accidental ammonia exposure so I will be doing a bath in methylene blue. But after that I'm not sure what I plan to do. These are my first fish. They came from a low dose copper system. Some I've had for about 2 months, some I just got over the weekend and due to a major brain fart, they are all now in the same system. They did come from the same LFS at least.
I have some major debates here with myself over what to do.

---I am considering prazi for possible internal parasites on the one skinny fish.
For not doing prazi- Though I went back to LFS today and took a close look at the other clown gobies they got in and they're all very thin too so frankly I'm just not sure if it's simply that they don't handle the shipping well since all of the other fish I got are healthy, and all of their other fish are healthy weights as well. I've never noticed any white stringy poop on a fish at LFS but that doesn't have to mean anything aside from me not seeing something. Then there's treating a fish that isn't ill, especially with a history of being super super skinny and difficult to get eating.
For doing prazi- You never know what a fish might have.

---I was planning to do TTM, but frankly I've messed up with cross contamination so many times at this point that I feel like I've given up on doing that as a treatment. And that's with me making an effort so my point with that is that I'm really really bad at keeping things straight and I have a very small limited area where I'm able to be doing my QT procedures due to construction so I feel like with the airborne transmission it would be near impossible for me to keep all of Set A / Set B sterile. I have contaminated everything at one point or another, even my salt mixing bucket has been dipped in from multiple sources by mistake so I would need to first go through the salt water that I have then tear just about everything apart to make sure it's properly cleansed. Additionally it's taken so long to get to this point that tank transfers would need to be done once work and school starts up again and I don't know how much time I will have for the final few transfers. I'm not efficient yet, it takes a significant amount of time for me to do all of that, we're talking several hours which I won't have for the last 2 transfers.

So overall I'm really just leaning towards an observational QT and treating if something arises but then at one point I contaminated the existing fish that had been with me for a month and more, with the fish that I just got. So now even those fish that I've had for a couple months now need to restart that observational clock at the very least? After the exposure I just put them all together for ease of care. And of course not everything will show if it's there which worries me.

I want to eventually get a tang, not for a long while with my poor skill level, but it means I should probably be 150% sure that my DT is free and clear because of any future additions?

 

[Big G]

After many failures and finally some success, I've come to use the following method for new incoming fish that are not displaying any active disease or injury. Works for me, but your mileage may vary:

Prophylactic Treatment: No observed symptoms of disease or injury

20 gal QT cycled: HOB with foam pad & BioMax treated with Bio Spira/Dr Tims, foam bubble filter with foam soaked for at least 2 weeks in DT sump.
heater, powerhead aimed up at the surface actively mixing the water, Seachem Ammonia Alert Badge.
Tank lights off. Ambient room lighting only.
Feed fish with white/black worms, and a mix of vitamin & fiber packed frozen fish food cubes (one of each like cyclops, mysis, chopped clams, seaweed, etc. with Selcon/Zoecon for at least 3 days
Freshwater dip to check for flukes. If no flukes, treat with copper first for ich/velvet
Using Copper Power (not copper safe brand) S-l-o-w-l-y (8-10 days) bring up copper to therapeutic levels for prophylactic treatment for 30 days: Tank lights off until therapeutic level is reached. Best to dose several times a day (AM, lunch, PM) rather than one large dose. Use a Hanna HL Copper Checker, they work great and lower both your stress and the fish's.
Carbon & Cuprisorb to remove copper. Water changes. Observe.
General Cure 2 doses 5-7 days apart. Turn up bubbler and turn on powerhead aimed at surface to increase O2. Like GC over Prazipro. GC has Metro + Praziquantel, so you are getting the Praziquantel which kills flukes and "some" internal parasites and Metro that kills all internal parasites/worms. And the dose of Praziquantel is lower but does the job and is easier on sensitive fish.
Carbon & water changes.
Observe 10-14 days.

 

[starypotter]

At this point personal experience is what I’m looking for. You read so many textbook things but I don’t know how many do it and what other people do that works too. I will certainly take this all into account, frankly I like the sound of this plan. I like certainty so it feels safer than just doing one the other etc.
how do you find fish do with being treated no matter if they’re sick or not?

 

[Big G]

They seem to do fine. The fish smoothies of a mix of several frozen fish cubes + vitamins really helps getting them eating. The 20 gallon QT is the sweet spot for 2-3 fish. Recommend a 40 breeder if your are working with larger fish. The Hanna HL Copper Checker is a game changer. You can actually dial up the copper accurately. Nice. Many of us were overdosing with the inaccurate API type and damaging and or killing fish without knowing we were overdosing. Huge difference. That being said, marine velvet is rampant in the industry. Used to be the norm to treat for flukes first, but that's changed. Too many fish suppliers, local fish stores, etc. are using low doses of copper to keep disease down while they have the fish in their care. So hobbyists were getting fish treated with below therapeutic levels of copper and the copper effects would wear off in a few days with fish showing little to zero of the normal symptoms of velvet. And by then, it was too late to save them. Thus treat with copper first. Works for me. Your mileage may vary. Haven't lost a fish in QT for quite awhile now. All fish in the DT doing just fine.

 

[starypotter]

They seem to do fine. The fish smoothies of a mix of several frozen fish cubes + vitamins really helps getting them eating. The 20 gallon QT is the sweet spot for 2-3 fish. Recommend a 40 breeder if your are working with larger fish. The Hanna HL Copper Checker is a game changer. You can actually dial up the copper accurately. Nice. Many of us were overdosing with the inaccurate API type and damaging and or killing fish without knowing we were overdosing. Huge difference. That being said, marine velvet is rampant in the industry. Used to be the norm to treat for flukes first, but that's changed. Too many fish suppliers, local fish stores, etc. are using low doses of copper to keep disease down while they have the fish in their care. So hobbyists were getting fish treated with below therapeutic levels of copper and the copper effects would wear off in a few days with fish showing little to zero of the normal symptoms of velvet. And by then, it was too late to save them. Thus treat with copper first. Works for me. Your mileage may vary. Haven't lost a fish in QT for quite awhile now. All fish in the DT doing just fine.

That's good to hear, copper frightens me to be quite honest. It just seems like it's so so easy to overdo and damage as you said. And good golly I just looked up the price on the Hanna copper checker and that seems like a whole lot of money, but I'm new so perspective might just be off. But that's like unlimited tests right, how often do you need to recalibrate it? How often do you need to test the copper during one full round of treatment would you say? Meaning from when you start adding it to the system all the way until the fish are treated? Ballpark of course, like is it daily, multiple times daily etc? Trying to find a way to justify $50 on a singular tester when a Salifert test kit is $0.20 a test. Is copper in the water copper in the water for 1 or 20 fish? Would anything need to be adjusted if you're putting more fish in there?

I know my LFS where I got these fish runs a low dose of copper, and the ones I got from them almost 2 months ago seem fine apart from one who has this thing going on. They also run an aquaculture facility so hopefully they're a bit better with the husbandry, but who knows I might just be being optimistic.

 

[starypotter]

Afternoon Bump for a new crowd

 

[Big G]

When you consider the cost of saltwater fish and the stress, a Hanna HL Copper Checker is a good investment for your current and future use. It comes with a few packets of the reagent powder. Buy another box of 25 to save on shipping. There is no recalibration needed with the unit. Here's a great link on dosing copper
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chelated-copper-is-chelated-copper.373513/#post-4576168
Doesn't matter how many fish are in the QT when dosing copper. Just remember when you do water changes, to always, always replace dirty tank water with fresh mixed saltwater that is the same level of copper. Never let the copper level drop below "therapeutic level" otherwise the clock starts over.

 

[starypotter]

When you consider the cost of saltwater fish and the stress, a Hanna HL Copper Checker is a good investment for your current and future use. It comes with a few packets of the reagent powder. Buy another box of 25 to save on shipping. There is no recalibration needed with the unit. Here's a great link on dosing copper
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chelated-copper-is-chelated-copper.373513/#post-4576168
Doesn't matter how many fish are in the QT when dosing copper. Just remember when you do water changes, to always, always replace dirty tank water with fresh mixed saltwater that is the same level of copper. Never let the copper level drop below "therapeutic level" otherwise the clock starts over.

Thanks! I planned to run a HOB filter when I do this with sponges from my sump, but I just remembered that a week or two ago I had to add prime to my tank. Can I no longer use those sponges or does Prime eventually 'leave' or something? I'm not going to use them until I know. But how far do I need to be removed from Prime to use copper, do I need a whole other system? Would 100% water change be enough, do I need to sanitize anything that was in the tank while prime was in there?

 

[starypotter]

When you consider the cost of saltwater fish and the stress, a Hanna HL Copper Checker is a good investment for your current and future use. It comes with a few packets of the reagent powder. Buy another box of 25 to save on shipping. There is no recalibration needed with the unit. Here's a great link on dosing copper
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/chelated-copper-is-chelated-copper.373513/#post-4576168
Doesn't matter how many fish are in the QT when dosing copper. Just remember when you do water changes, to always, always replace dirty tank water with fresh mixed saltwater that is the same level of copper. Never let the copper level drop below "therapeutic level" otherwise the clock starts over.

Yes, I'll be getting one. Figure it's a decent investment in fish safety and sanity. What sort of copper do you like to use?

Did a methylene blue dip. Gosh I hate doing dips it's terrifying! I managed to set up my old 29 which I put them in with some freshly mixed water since I'm still not sure where everything stands in terms of prime. I left the skinny goby in it's acclimation box and just lifted the box from the tank, to the dip, then to the fresh water, but the box had prime in it so I just want to make sure that it'll be okay with the copper as long as I don't add any more prime. If a residue or anything in the filter foam will cause a problem then I won't add the rest of the water that I'm making. It's only got several inches now since I didn't have a ton of prime-free water on hand.

I'm assuming that a residue wouldn't be too much of an issue otherwise I feel like I'd be seeing things about needing to sterilize things before using copper?

 

[Maritimer]

I should think that a 100% water change should be plenty to prevent Prime from causing trouble with copper.

~Bruce

 

[DeniseAndy]

Honestly, I have had great success with a very easy qt. Done it for years and have had very few deaths. Even some pretty touchy guys. Anthias, wrasses, trigger, tang, copperband, rabbitfish, etc.
I have never used copper or copper safe or any of those products. I have only ever needed formalin, prazipro, antibiotics.
I also set up the qt as needed. I do not keep running or cycle the qt. Just water changes and testing. This would not obviously work for inverts of any kind -- only fish!

Basics of the Quarantine System

1) Equipment needed will vary slightly with the type of fish you are keeping in QT. These are the basics.

a. Tank 10-50 gallons with cover – fish size and activity will determine best size of tank.

b. Darkened sides (paper or other cover). Keeps the outside stresses to a minimum.

c. Mechanical/Biological Filtration. Using filter floss, carbon, and a preset biological ring/sponge (keeping one in the DT works great to have the biological already in place). However, if you need to medicate, remove the biological filtration and any carbon filter you may have.

d. No live rock or live sand. Use PVC and fake décor for the fish to hide. A few exceptions to this rule are those that need sand to bury or feed. Use a tub of sand placed in the tank so it can be removed easily. Use dry sand, not live.

e. Test Kits: Ammonia (Ammonia badges work the best), pH, Temp, SG, Nitrate

f. Medications (Praziquantel, Gram-negative antibiotic, Formalin) – these are your basic hospital needs.

g. Net designated for QT only.

h. Logbook to record parameters and behaviors, any other observations

Note: Lights are not required for a QT. Ambient lights are enough. Keeping it dark for the first couple days is best.

2) Do not give any medications for the first 24 hours. Observe only. Of course, there are always those situations that call for immediate action, but generally speaking, leave the fish alone for the first 24 hours.

3) Do not give medications without seeing and diagnosing the problem first. The one exception is Praziquantel can be given as a de-wormer after the fish has settled into QT and is showing no signs of illness.

4) If you see any signs of disease and must treat, decide whether a hospital tank is needed or whether treating in QT will work. If you have multiple fish in the QT, I would separate the disease fish into a separate hospital tank to treat.

5) Keep in a minimum of 4 weeks. Time will start over from the date of any signs of disease.

6) Hypo salinity (1.010-1.013) is a general rule with QT. It eases the osmoregulation of the fish and reduces the parasitic load too. This is especially true with highly stressed fish.

7) Monitor the fish daily at a minimum. Make sure it is eating, active and no lesions, spots, swim issues, etc.

8) If all goes well, you will have another healthy fish to add to your display. If signs of disease are present, find the best method of treatment (a good disease book or resident knowledgeable person).

 

[starypotter]

I should think that a 100% water change should be plenty to prevent Prime from causing trouble with copper.

~Bruce

Thanks! It's 100% different water but I kept the same PVC and isolation box so I was worried about that. Do you think the filter floss from the DT which had Prime in it about 2 weeks ago would be okay or should I avoid using that and come up with other means for biological filtration?

 

[starypotter]

I'm working with most of those things now! I haven't set it all up but I've got a lovely assortment of PVC, and my clownfish have grown especially fond of this ceramic submarine from Petco, they brush up against it like it's an anemone ;Hilarious who knew a submarine could host a clown fish! And my Midas is becoming very fond of it as well. I'm thinking it'll have to be wooed into my aquascaping they all just love it so much. I also did put a nice hairy rock from my sump in there for my algae blenny, I'm setting up a coral QT/Frag Tank so it'll just have to wait it out in there once these fish are done.
I've never seen much of the hypo salinity, I've seen it for 1.009 to treat parasites but never like that. I'll have to read up on that.
I'd love to not treat unless I see an issue, I just don't trust myself and my observational skills so I'm considering the idea of treating for the basics anyway. Seems to me like the better option over letting everyone in DT and then having to catch them all and tear down over something that could've been taken care of earlier but if I had the time to observation I would love to not need to treat unless I saw something.

 

[Kelso]

activated Charcoal has been a godsend for us.... not only does it purify a tank of impurities, aka copper treatments, but it also whitens teeth... be sure to use Fluoride toothpaste to ensure recrystalization of enamel and no loss of tooth surfaces. LOL but I digress... it really does wonders in aquaria. BUT know your symptions and research the applicable cures accordingly. It will NOT cure pests or algae.
In the past we had a severe tank infestation of Aiptasia, in a fish only tank. Added copper sulfate in suspsended 15% Magnesium solution. It killed off all the inverts, and a yellow box fish, then we had to re-seed the tank with beneficial bacteria and change the carbon several times to ensure no residual copper was in the system. Makes we wish I had the foresight to just transfer the fish to another tank with dry base rock and start over.
Either-way, we learned quite a bit from that issue.
We now QUARANTINE everything added to our main tank. All the nanos and picos are left to their own growth and development... survival of the fittest... the resulting survivors either win their own biotope or are introduced into a larger tank.

 

[starypotter]

activated Charcoal has been a godsend for us.... not only does it purify a tank of impurities, aka copper treatments, but it also whitens teeth... be sure to use Fluoride toothpaste to ensure recrystalization of enamel and no loss of tooth surfaces. LOL but I digress... it really does wonders in aquaria. BUT know your symptions and research the applicable cures accordingly. It will NOT cure pests or algae.
In the past we had a severe tank infestation of Aiptasia, in a fish only tank. Added copper sulfate in suspsended 15% Magnesium solution. It killed off all the inverts, and a yellow box fish, then we had to re-seed the tank with beneficial bacteria and change the carbon several times to ensure no residual copper was in the system. Makes we wish I had the foresight to just transfer the fish to another tank with dry base rock and start over.
Either-way, we learned quite a bit from that issue.
We now QUARANTINE everything added to our main tank. All the nanos and picos are left to their own growth and development... survival of the fittest... the resulting survivors either win their own biotope or are introduced into a larger tank.

Oh my that stinks, I'm glad you've got a handle on things now! My fish haven't even touched my display yet, and I have corals in there so I'll be only using copper in a QT tank luckily.