Quarantine invertebrates?

[RobB'z Reef]

I'm at the beginning of starting up a new 180 gallon tank and I have some quarantine tanks set up with the mindset that I'll be running my fish through them and proactively treating them with copper,prazi etc... I want some fire shrimp and other general CUC as well. Do I need to treat invertebrates the same way I do fish with regards to the rampant disease commonly found in the supply chain?

 

[cmaxwell39]

The thing you are wanting to make sure with inverts is that they are not coming in with encysted ich or velvet that can "hatch" and release parasites that could then infect your fish. A lot of people don't QT inverts at all, and never have an issue, but all it takes is one problem to have a tank ich or velvet in your tank that you have done your best to keep disease/parasites out of.

IMO if you are going to go to the trouble of QTing your fish, you should QT anything wet that is going into the system. Corals, inverts, macroalgae, etc. The QT process for inverts would not be the same as fish as you are not worrying about active infestations of these parasites, but rather making sure they do not carry in any encysted parasites on their skeletons/shells. You will want to house these inverts in a fishless QT for a minimum of 45 days, and if you want to be entirely sure the consesus is 76 days.

 

[AcroNem]

I agree with the above, but will add that general invert quarantine is usually successful at 30 days

 

[Hugh Mann]

Or until the first molt is observed in the case of crabs and shrimp. Then just rinse and add in.

Anenomes and Urchins can just be rinsed off as ich and velvet can't encyst on them.

 

[RobB'z Reef]

The thing you are wanting to make sure with inverts is that they are not coming in with encysted ich or velvet that can "hatch" and release parasites that could then infect your fish. A lot of people don't QT inverts at all, and never have an issue, but all it takes is one problem to have a tank ich or velvet in your tank that you have done your best to keep disease/parasites out of.

IMO if you are going to go to the trouble of QTing your fish, you should QT anything wet that is going into the system. Corals, inverts, macroalgae, etc. The QT process for inverts would not be the same as fish as you are not worrying about active infestations of these parasites, but rather making sure they do not carry in any encysted parasites on their skeletons/shells. You will want to house these inverts in a fishless QT for a minimum of 45 days, and if you want to be entirely sure the consesus is 76 days.

I appreciate your thorough response! I'm not averse to doing just that. So with the invertebrates is it just watch and observe or should I keep a medicated level of copper as well?

 

[Hugh Mann]

Neither. Simply wait out the fallow period. You won't be able to see any ich or velvet come off them, as they are microscopic.

Definitely do not use copper, it will kill the invertibrates.

 

[gray808]

I just set up my fish QT, planning on getting a few starter fish this weekend.
I have one 10g tank set up as QT and a 2nd identical 10g tank to swap to (copper -> praz -> observe).

I was also going to get some snails and crabs... looks like those should be QT'd as well... does this mean I need a THIRD tank, for Invert QT?

I'm running out of room here.

--Gray

 

[RobB'z Reef]

I just set up my fish QT, planning on getting a few starter fish this weekend.
I have one 10g tank set up as QT and a 2nd identical 10g tank to swap to (copper -> praz -> observe).

I was also going to get some snails and crabs... looks like those should be QT'd as well... does this mean I need a THIRD tank, for Invert QT?

I'm running out of room here.

--Gray

Copper is supper bad for inverts it will kill them at theraputic levels. I would just QT and observe them for an extended period in something you are not medicating in.

 

[gray808]

The problem there is the 2 tanks are needed to swap back and forth for the duration of fish QT... so I'd need to do a completely different tank.

I'm having trouble justifying having 3 QT tanks for 1 display tank.

--Gray

 

[RobB'z Reef]

The problem there is the 2 tanks are needed to swap back and forth for the duration of fish QT... so I'd need to do a completely different tank.

I'm having trouble justifying having 3 QT tanks for 1 display tank.

--Gray

haha the struggle is real! I have two 20's up for QT and realize quickly the amount of tanks you need is in direct proportion to how fast you want to jam things into your tank assuming you aren't going to cut corners. We tend to all want more gooder more faster but that's not how it works unfortunately. I'm stopping at two

 

[Silly clownfish]

I use TTM for my Qt treatment. No copper. Since I am filling and rinsing the tanks so often, I am starting to be convinced that 5 gallon buckets would be better, at least for smaller critters. I know I am going to break one of the 10g tanks one of these days while trying to rinse and have broken glass everywhere.

i also QT inverts like shrimp until the molt, which is typically less than 30 days for me.

I order snails from places that have them in fish free systems and do not qt.

 

[BackToTheReef]

I'm going to when I get the tank up and running simply because Murphy is a permanent roommate of mine.

 

[drtechno]

Hold on guys. By this logic, you all would advocate quarantining a cleaner crew of snails, emerald crabs and hermits? That can’t be right can it???
Confused

 

[gray808]

Hold on guys. By this logic, you all would advocate quarantining a cleaner crew of snails, emerald crabs and hermits? That can’t be right can it???
Confused

This is exactly the state that I am in.

Right now my choices are:
1) Just get CUC this weekend, no fish, and then QT them for 76 days, then do it again with fish, each time I get fish, then do it again when I get corals, every time I get corals.
2) just get fish this weekend, no snails or crabs, then repeat as above, except next step would be CUC, then more fish, then corals, each iteration lasting 76 days
3) Get some fish this weekend. QT them as planned (Copper 2 weeks, GC, etc2 weeks, 2 weeks observation), also get some snails and crab and just pray and throw them in the DT.
4) lose my mind and possibly become unengaged and build out like 4-6 different QT tanks, somewhere.

It does seem kinda nuts to me to have a dedicated 10 gallon tank, just for snails and hermits, and that's before the argument that each tank needs to be cycled.

--Gray

 

[RobB'z Reef]

This is exactly the state that I am in.

Right now my choices are:
1) Just get CUC this weekend, no fish, and then QT them for 76 days, then do it again with fish, each time I get fish, then do it again when I get corals, every time I get corals.
2) just get fish this weekend, no snails or crabs, then repeat as above, except next step would be CUC, then more fish, then corals, each iteration lasting 76 days
3) Get some fish this weekend. QT them as planned (Copper 2 weeks, GC, etc2 weeks, 2 weeks observation), also get some snails and crab and just pray and throw them in the DT.
4) lose my mind and possibly become unengaged and build out like 4-6 different QT tanks, somewhere.

It does seem kinda nuts to me to have a dedicated 10 gallon tank, just for snails and hermits, and that's before the argument that each tank needs to be cycled.

--Gray

Honestly I have similar anxiety. I'm not a quarantine expert. I've had a fair amount of experience reefing. I did have a break. My first go around I quarantined nothing. Towards the end I got what I had coming, ICH. I set up what I called back then hospital tanks (same thing as QT but oops too late). This go around I swore I would be proactive and do quarantine first. However, with regards to invertebrates.. I'm at a loss myself. The only thing I do know is copper is death to those, but I don't have any knowledge in regards to their ability to transfer or perpetuate common fish diseases that we are concerned about. This is something I don't hear typically talked about in the quarantine best practice threads I've found to date.

 

[Hugh Mann]

Yes. Quarantine your inverts. I will explain why.

Part of the life cycle of both ich and velvet involves the organism latching onto a hard surface, glass, plastic, snail shell, crab shell, etc, to grow and release the free swimming stage which goes on to infect fish. There's no obvious signs of this, so the only way to be sure is to put them in a system without fish for a minimum of 45 days (Velvet), or 76 days (ich) as that is how long it takes for each parasite to starve to death, being unable to feed on fish. Unfortunately the copper based medicines that would speed up the process would also kill the inverts, hence why it takes so long.

That being said, 'soft' inverts such as urchins and anenomes, ich/velvet cannot latch onto, so these only need a good rinsing or two after acclimation before introducing to the display tank.

That is why we recommend quarantining inverts. I learned this lesson the hard way, when velvet got in my tank aboard a snail I did not quarantine and lost most of my livestock.

You actually only need two tanks. Use one to quarantine the fish, treat with copper or however you want. Because it's only a 10 gallon, it's easy and fast to remove the copper via Cuprisorb and water changes to then dose prazi.

Keep the other 10 gallon as your invert quarantine. Heck, set it up as a nano tank with rock and whatnot since you won't be using any meds on this one. Run a batch of inverts through it, once they go into your display, add the next batch of inverts. Batches are best, but if you can keep track of which inverts were introduced when, at each 76 day mark they can be put in the display. What I mean by that is if you put snails in there Day One then Day 30 you put in hermit crabs, you can take the snails out Day 76, and the hermits Day 106.

I hope this explains and answers your questions.

 

[schuby]

Is there a scientific paper/study showing that inverts can carry or transfer fish disease?

 

[RobB'z Reef]

Yes. Quarantine your inverts. I will explain why.

Part of the life cycle of both ich and velvet involves the organism latching onto a hard surface, glass, plastic, snail shell, crab shell, etc, to grow and release the free swimming stage which goes on to infect fish. There's no obvious signs of this, so the only way to be sure is to put them in a system without fish for a minimum of 45 days (Velvet), or 76 days (ich) as that is how long it takes for each parasite to starve to death, being unable to feed on fish. Unfortunately the copper based medicines that would speed up the process would also kill the inverts, hence why it takes so long.

That being said, 'soft' inverts such as urchins and anenomes, ich/velvet cannot latch onto, so these only need a good rinsing or two after acclimation before introducing to the display tank.

That is why we recommend quarantining inverts. I learned this lesson the hard way, when velvet got in my tank aboard a snail I did not quarantine and lost most of my livestock.

You actually only need two tanks. Use one to quarantine the fish, treat with copper or however you want. Because it's only a 10 gallon, it's easy and fast to remove the copper via Cuprisorb and water changes to then dose prazi.

Keep the other 10 gallon as your invert quarantine. Heck, set it up as a nano tank with rock and whatnot since you won't be using any meds on this one. Run a batch of inverts through it, once they go into your display, add the next batch of inverts. Batches are best, but if you can keep track of which inverts were introduced when, at each 76 day mark they can be put in the display. What I mean by that is if you put snails in there Day One then Day 30 you put in hermit crabs, you can take the snails out Day 76, and the hermits Day 106.

I hope this explains and answers your questions.

This was helpful. I didn't know the parasites latched on to any hard surface. I could only assume it was a typical host like a fish. So basically any introduction of anything requires a reset of the clock so to speak?
I have two QT tanks... Right now I have two clowns and a fire shrimp in what I call QT1. I got them from a vendor that supposedly goes though their own 'rigorous' quarantine process. At this time until I speak to the owner I will not move these to my DT until after day 76.
Under your logic, even if their qt process was spot on for proactive therapeutic levels of copper followed by prazi etc for the fish, my throwing the shrimp in with them invalidated that whole premiss. Correct?

 

[Hugh Mann]

I don't recall the names for each stage, but the life cycle basically goes.
Burrows into fish, feeds, drops off--> encysting onto hard surface --> releases free swimmers --> free swimmers infects fish. Copper targets the free swimming stage, if I recall. The tank transfer method targets the stage between dropping off and reinfection, moving the fish to a clean tank after they have dropped off, but before reinfection.

The life cycle doesn't happen all at once, which is why treatments take a couple weeks.

If you introduce a fish later to your QT, the clock resets. With inverts, assuming they are in a fishless system, the introduction of inverts layer on does not reset the clock for the original inverts. However you would have to be very careful transferring them to the display, minimizing water transfer, as free swimmers could be present from the later group. That's why most will advocate quaranting in batches, as by the 76 days there will be zero chance of free swimmers present, but with caution, not necessary. Side note with crabs and shrimp, once they molt, shedding their old exoskeleton, they're good to transfer to the display with a rinse, as any encysted ich will be on the molt.

Unfortunately yes, adding the shrimp, while not a guarantee it was carrying encysted ich, is theoretically possible. Would recommend a minimum 30 day observation, or removal of the shrimp followed by copper or tank transfer.

 

[RobB'z Reef]

I don't recall the names for each stage, but the life cycle basically goes.
Burrows into fish, feeds, drops off--> encysting onto hard surface --> releases free swimmers --> free swimmers infects fish. Copper targets the free swimming stage, if I recall. The tank transfer method targets the stage between dropping off and reinfection, moving the fish to a clean tank after they have dropped off, but before reinfection.

The life cycle doesn't happen all at once, which is why treatments take a couple weeks.

If you introduce a fish later to your QT, the clock resets. With inverts, assuming they are in a fishless system, the introduction of inverts layer on does not reset the clock for the original inverts. However you would have to be very careful transferring them to the display, minimizing water transfer, as free swimmers could be present from the later group. That's why most will advocate quaranting in batches, as by the 76 days there will be zero chance of free swimmers present, but with caution, not necessary. Side note with crabs and shrimp, once they molt, shedding their old exoskeleton, they're good to transfer to the display with a rinse, as any encysted ich will be on the molt.

Unfortunately yes, adding the shrimp, while not a guarantee it was carrying encysted ich, is theoretically possible. Would recommend a minimum 30 day observation, or removal of the shrimp followed by copper or tank transfer.

Appreciate you sharing your experience. My shrimp molted 5 days after putting him in quarantine with my clowns lol. But he's still there so... Guess they are all gonna share the same ride. Fortunately my display tank doesn't get here till end of next week. Which means by the time that is all plumbed in, settled out and stabilized, I'll only have to wait a couple weeks to move this crew in.