Quarantine question

[dcinky]

I purchased a fairy wrasse on October 6th, over ten weeks ago, and placed him in a quarantine tank but never medicated because work kept me away from home until recently. My wife and kids just kept the fish, that appears healthy, fed. Do you think it would be safe to move him to the display tank at this point? I’d appreciate your opinion on this! Thanks

 

[theMeat]

Wrasse are sensitive to copper. Would do a round or two of prazi. Quick and easy then into display

Sure some will disagree

 

[User]

Wrasse are sensitive to copper. Would do a round or two of prazi. Quick and easy then into display

Sure some will disagree

Lol. Hey buddy!

Wrasses have a thick coat and are the ‘typhoid mary’ of the fish world. They’ll harbor a bunch of diseases but not show signs of infection.

They are also ‘known’ as being copper sensitive, which isn’t accurate. They are more sensitive to overdose than other fish, but will tolerate therapeutic 1.75 ppm copper power just fine.

I would get some copper power, a hanna high range copper tester and look at the newer QT techniques in the disease section.

Using copper is no longer the ‘chemotherapy’ of fish treatment, with high loss rate. Accurate dosing with use of the hanna checker has increased its safety profile massively

And fwiw- Prazipro is useless against ich and velvet (good advice there, Meat...[emoji17]), things that can wipe out your tank in days to weeks. Copper or Chloroquine Phosphate are the two known ways of killing both. CP is difficult to get a hold of, and requires a vets prescription. Copper power can be at your house via amazon in 2 days

 

[JumboShrimp]

Just wanted to pass along that due to multiple outbreaks of Marine Velvet, one of my oldest fish— a M. Wrasse— has joined other fish for CopperSafe treatments three (3) times; thereputic levels of 30 days at a time. So I trust CopperSafe with a Wrasse— but you must use a Hanna Copper Checker (and a SeaChem ammonia Badge is highly recommend). I would also echo the concern that @neilp2006 had... something like Ich or Marine Velvet laying in wait in an untreated fish, like a ticking time bomb. Best wishes!

 

[Coronus]

If in 10 weeks the fish does not show signs of anything. In she goes for me.
I do always treat with Prazipro though to de worm. It’s safe on the fish.
I do a 4 week Qt and use Prazi. I only treat with copper if the disease shows itself. In my experience, ich and velvet would have already shown itself. This is what I do.

 

[User]

Ich can be present on a wrasse and the fish be asymptomatic for longer than 10 weeks. If it’s fed well, not stressed— it can live with the parasite for months.

As soon as you put it into a DT with competition for food, space abd there is potential bullying, it’s immune system decreases in efficacy, and it goes symptomatic.

Any fish going into my DT get a ruby reef rally dip for 90 minutes as soon as they get home. Then copper power measured daily with hanna checker for 14 days, moved to a new QT where it gets general cure in water and added to food with focus, fir 2 more weeks (2 rounds GC over that time). Then 2 weeks med free before DT.

6 weeks. I don’t like using the copper- but velvet is so rampant and destructive, the situation warrants it.

This protocol is as close to the state of the art as possible — and was developed by several highly skilled aquaculturists on this site. I’m not a marine biologist— I’m an infectious disease phd with a specialization in parasitology — and I concur 100% with the strategy they developed.

 

[theMeat]

A single fish can play host to ich lifecycle for months, so 10 weeks— yes. It can.

Wrasses are slightly more sensitive at around 2.5ppm copper. They are fine in 1.75ppm. They aren’t SO sensitive that copper needs to be avoided— which is what you suggested.

Please don’t continue your crap advice on a thread where your crappy advice could lead to someone killing the livestock in their tank.

Agreed. Prazi will not do much for ich or velvet. Not sure why you think I suggested that.

 

[User]

Agreed. Prazi will not do much for ich or velvet. Not sure why you think I suggested that.

You suggested only Prazipro as an option, when it covers, at best, 2 of the 6-7 ailments that need to be treated for. That omission of the full spectrum of the issue causes an undue sense of complacency with the problem.

And the way you worded it made it sound like you thought prazipro was a good alternative to copper- which it isn’t, since they do different things— which is why I worded my response the way I did.

 

[theMeat]

You suggested only Prazipro as an option, when it covers, at best, 2 of the 6-7 ailments that need to be treated for. That omission of the full spectrum of the issue causes an undue sense of complacency with the problem.

And the way you worded it made it sound like you thought prazipro was a good alternative to copper- which it isn’t, since they do different things— which is why I worded my response the way I did.

Was asked to share opinion by op, which I did. Did not suggest prazi as an alternative to copper, nor that it would cure ich or velvet.
My suggestion was prazi because the wrasse has been alone in qt for 10 weeks. Could ich or velvet still be present? Yes, but not likely, especially being the only host in the tank. Copper, even if done properly takes it’s toll, especially on certain fish, like wrasse. This is my opinion bases on decades of experience. Please don’t take it or make it personal

 

[User]

Could ich or velvet still be present? Yes, but not likely, especially being the only host in the tank.

Im not being personal.

But you have a gross misunderstanding of how a parasite like ich goes about its life cycle if you think being the only fish in a tank contributes in any way to any form of immunity or reduced likelyhood of attachment by the theront.

Fact is- once the parasite encysts, it can release new theronts for up to 72 days. Then they attach to a fish- any fish, previously infected or not- goes about its life cycle, and produces more tomonts that re-encyst. Then repeat.

It’s completely irrelevant if the fish population equals 1. It’s a Food source regardless if it’s the only one in there and it’s already infected.


And your decades of experience with copper is also irrelevant. The newest findings (less than a year old) are that copper is much safer than previously thought when dosed accurately, measured by the hanna checker. The idea that certain species are intrinsically super sensitive to copper is outdated, and many wrasse species have successfully made it through copper treatment when accurate testing is used.

 

[theMeat]

Im not being personal.

But you have a gross misunderstanding of how a parasite like ich goes about its life cycle if you think being the only fish in a tank contributes in any way to any form of immunity or reduced likelyhood of attachment by the theront.

Fact is- once the parasite encysts, it can release new theronts for up to 72 days. Then they attach to a fish- any fish, previously infected or not- goes about its life cycle, and produces more tomonts that re-encyst. Then repeat.

It’s completely irrelevant if the fish population equals 1. It’s a Food source regardless if it’s the only one in there and it’s already infected.


And your decades of experience with copper is also irrelevant. The newest findings (less than a year old) are that copper is much safer than previously thought when dosed accurately, measured by the hanna checker. The idea that certain species are intrinsically super sensitive to copper is outdated, and many wrasse species have successfully made it through copper treatment when accurate testing is used.

I do understand the life cycle, and don’t I have a gross misunderstanding of it. But thank you

 

[nereefpat]

I agree about doing a round or two of deworming. It only takes a couple/few days.

At this point, imo, you would most likely know if velvet was present.

So the question seems to be about prophylactic treatment for ich. It's up to the OP. Personally, for stocking my current tank, I have been doing Tank Transfer and prazi for every fish.

 

[theMeat]

I agree about doing a round or two of deworming. It only takes a couple/few days.

At this point, imo, you would most likely know if velvet was present.

So the question seems to be about prophylactic treatment for ich. It's up to the OP. Personally, for stocking my current tank, I have been doing Tank Transfer and prazi for every fish.

Nice

Tank transfer is a lil stress for fish, and lil labor intense for you, but works

 

[Frtdrmrose7]

Let me throw a log on the fire, what would you guys say if this was a Tang in observation for 10 weeks with no signs of ich or velvet? I personally QT my fish but this has raised my curiosity since Tangs are typically quick to show illness.

 

[theMeat]

Im not being personal.

But you have a gross misunderstanding of how a parasite like ich goes about its life cycle if you think being the only fish in a tank contributes in any way to any form of immunity or reduced likelyhood of attachment by the theront.

Fact is- once the parasite encysts, it can release new theronts for up to 72 days. Then they attach to a fish- any fish, previously infected or not- goes about its life cycle, and produces more tomonts that re-encyst. Then repeat.

It’s completely irrelevant if the fish population equals 1. It’s a Food source regardless if it’s the only one in there and it’s already infected.


And your decades of experience with copper is also irrelevant. The newest findings (less than a year old) are that copper is much safer than previously thought when dosed accurately, measured by the hanna checker. The idea that certain species are intrinsically super sensitive to copper is outdated, and many wrasse species have successfully made it through copper treatment when accurate testing is used.

It is not “completely irrelevant” that it is the only fish. Because if velvet it can’t pass from one to another, possibly prolonging the diagnosis. If you’re lucky enough to get that opportunity. And if it’s ich it’s the only host which showed no signs for 10 weeks. Could it have had one or two spots that were missed? Sure. Could those one or two multiply to devastate a whole tank. Sure. And I could hit the Lotto too.

Have seen time and time again. With copper of any form, tank transfer, hypo, you name it. After 3 months of treatment, followed by another month of observation. Success is declared and fish go back into fallow tank. Have done it myself many times and in every way. Only to see ich return.
The last time I did it I swore it was the last. Now if you have a smaller tank, or a new tank, or that’s loaded with fish and stress than i’d recommend you act guickly if you see it multiplying quickly with each cycle/generation. Only to scratch my head and wonder why some do no preventive or otherwise and have virtually no issues.
That was about 7 years ago. Since then have a moderately sized uv, feed better including more fresh food. Am much more considerate as to tank mates, and my success is way greater. Now unless a fish shows signs of something it goes in the tank. Have grown confident in my ability to treat fish so even take a chance on some fish that already show signs at lfs.
Someone asks for my opinion and that’s what they get. It’s ok if you don’t agree

 

[HotRocks]

Depends on the type of tang. Zebrasoma tangs are much more resistant than an acanthurus would be.

 

[theMeat]

I got a purple tang from a fellow reefer. About 4-5” with a bad case of LLE.
Guys tank looked healthy and he had the fish for years. Took her home and put her in Qt because I wanted to move some rocks around before I put her in to help with territorial behavior from the many other established tangs. Next day some ich spots, oh crap. Day after that the fish is covered, great. So started 4 weeks of copper, tank transfer, then on week two of observation saw more. Had no more cupramine on hand and within a few days of me not getting any the fish was spotted more and now in distress. Said f this and put him in display. That was over 3 years ago. Saw some spots on other fish that came and went a few times for about a year, now nothing. Have added a fox face, with nothing more than a fe dip since than, 3 anthius, and a pair of flame angels since then. All inhabitants doing great! Haven’t added a fish in at least a year. Because I didn’t have any dying and don’t need to.
Not recommending anyone do this. Only sharing what I now do

 

[ca1ore]

It’s an age old debate - observe in QT or prophylatically treat. Ultimately only you can decide. I QT all fish, but I generally don’t treat them in the absence of symptoms and that approach has worked for me for many years. Is it ‘safer’ to prophylactically treat ...... probably in that fish can be carriers, though with the inherent stress of collection and acclimation, I think most that are carriers also show overt symptoms. So, really, it’s back to the individual tolerance for risk.

The thing about fish being carriers that’s never made sense to me is that for them to spread something like ich, it has to be going through it’s life stages .... in other words, the fish has to have active disease. Is it possible for this to be in the gills, thus asymptomatic? I suppose, though I tend to dismiss this as behaviors are usually apparent. Anyhow, my personal calculation has been to observe for at least 8 weeks.

 

[CindyKz]

When I started in the hobby I was doing "sterile" quarantines with tank transfer and prazi. Every fish I put into QT seemed stressed, I had trouble getting them to eat, their colors were always off. Several starved to death. No matter how careful I was I had ammonia issues. The one time I tried copper I had a bad outcome (this was before the Hanna Checker).

Since then I've done 4 weeks observational QT in a cycled tank with sand and LR. Since changing my methods I've had I think 2 losses in QT. One was a tang that I am pretty sure had velvet, although he was in a "sterile" tank because my usual, comfy QT was occupied. The other was a flame hawk, never really knew what happened with him. My method is to leave the fish alone, let them hide in the rock for as long as they need, and usually within a few days I have an active eating fish.

No outbreaks in either display tank.

My experience is only about 2 1/2 years, but that's what it has been. I don't have advanced knowledge of disease transmission, but it seems to me that if a single fish is in a small, closed system with a parasite, the parasite would replicate, overwhelm the fish and there would be signs over time. Especially as ca1ore stated, the process of capture - ship - acclimation is inherently stressful. And I DO know that there is no such thing as a drug without risks. For me, the risk vs. benefit of prophylactic treatment isn't there.

 

[HotRocks]

I treat everything prophylactically. Across the board. Using either copper or CP. I also treat for intestinal worms/parasites and do two rounds of Praziquantel externally.

The distribution system is too polluted to take a chance. I also keep many ich prone or sensitive fish. So risking my entire tank with an untreated fish isn't an option for me. Too many fish can carry parasites being asymptomatic for my liking. I also tend to treat larger batches of fish so that increases the risk as well.

Just my .02